My 13 y.o. nephew has finally gotten into gaming, and I have been DMing both Beyond the Wall and my BECMI-inspired 5e D&D for him and his friends, with the threat of a Traveller or WEG Star Wars campaign sometime in the future. However, what really needs to happen is he be able to play with his friends by themselves--both because I'm crazy busy this year, and because one of them should learn to DM. I've steeped him in the virtue of sandbox/hexcrawling gaming, but don't really know how one best learns to DM that way. My own technique was to learn from others who were doing it that way, in the absence of any real other options (both because it was 1983 before most of the more railroad modules were available, and I couldn't afford them if they were). Now I have more money than time. Are there any good products out there are helpful for helping to learn how to DM a sandbox game? Books or hex generators or the like? Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
The AD&D DMG section on wilderness gen is a good start. Combine that with BXs wilderness encounter charts and maybee have a look at Isle of Dread.
The Donjon website (https://donjon.bin.sh/) has all kinds of random generators, great for coming up with things on the spot.
Quote from: Omega;1022164The AD&D DMG section on wilderness gen is a good start. Combine that with BXs wilderness encounter charts and maybee have a look at Isle of Dread.
Here is where I have trouble formulating my thoughts. I just feel that these are great tools, but not great teachers.
Please remember, you and I do not get a vote in the matter, your and my protectiveness over old school D&D are not pertinent, and if doing this is too difficult, he might just pick up a pre-made railroad adventure (or play something other than a TTRPG). While B/X has some great advise about making hexes, and 1e DMG has some nice random roll tables, neither are really great as how-to guides. I was wondering if anyone had seen anything like that.
Quote from: Technomancer;1022166The Donjon website (https://donjon.bin.sh/) has all kinds of random generators, great for coming up with things on the spot.
I am on vacation and looking at a very small screen, but when I get back, I will check all this out.
Donjon website is the best procedural content generator. I like to run it once or twice on the generic Fantasy tables, get 10-20 results. Those can then be used either to seed a sandbox (eg 1 per hex) or as random encounters. I use them for inspiration too, especially for 'colour' encounters where no random monster is rolled but I want something. Eg coming into a village, some PCs recently encountered a 'wise woman's' black cat with jeweled collar, haughtily watching them from up a tree...
The best advice I can give:
i. Make a small starter sandbox using hexes, say 1 mile/hex, around 300-400 squares miles is good.
ii. Fill it with stuff - your ideas, published site based adventures, rolls on donjon.se et al, liberally plastered over the hexes.
iii. Have a PC-friendly starter village towards the middle, with a few named NPCs, and useful services such as an Inn, marketplace, smithy, and lord's hall.
iv. Give the PCs 2-3 starting rumours of nearby adventure sites.
Do it right and you have opened the door to many years of great adventures.
Midlands Low Magic Sandbox Setting is half sandbox setting, half DIY toolkit with a sh*tload of tables to generate content/assist improv, and mini adventures to spread around the map area. It has a low magic base, however it's easy to add more magic.
Stars Without Number has a good section on sandbox GMing, and the rules are free. While SWN is sci-fi, the suggestions are system generic.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/230009/Stars-Without-Number-Revised-Edition-Free-Version
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1022378I am on vacation and looking at a very small screen, but when I get back, I will check all this out.
It's worth checking out and it works well on a phone screen.
Kevin Crawford's free fantasy RPG Examplars & Eidolons has a terrific 1 page adventure and campaign generator. If you walked a kid through it once, I am sure they could generate years worth of adventures (and quickly build their own generators).
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/144651/Exemplars--Eidolons
SWN is more detailed and Kevin does a great job presenting his thoughts on running a sandbox. I agree with Ratman that the GM advice is universal.
Download Blackmarsh, it free and very inexpensive if you want print. It meant to be a easy to learn setting for sandbox campaigns and has a page of advice.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/89944/Blackmarsh
Note I am the author of Blackmarsh
I presume that the advice in SWN is similar to that found in Godbound, while the latter is, of course, more geared towards fantasy sandboxing, as are the generators.
Quote from: estar;1022462Download Blackmarsh, it free and very inexpensive if you want print. It meant to be a easy to learn setting for sandbox campaigns and has a page of advice.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/89944/Blackmarsh
Note I am the author of Blackmarsh
I would offer a warning that published products, even your excellent Points of Light Rob, do not actually show how to run a sandbox. It took me years of trial & error in the 2000s to really grok it - grok it again, since ironically when I first started GMing with Fighting Fantasy and 1e AD&D in the mid '80s I was doing it intuitively. But I recall I spent years ca 2008-12 running linear campaigns using your Points of Light material! I think that's a big danger.
Quote from: S'mon;1022487I would offer a warning that published products, even your excellent Points of Light Rob, do not actually show how to run a sandbox. It took me years of trial & error in the 2000s to really grok it - grok it again, since ironically when I first started GMing with Fighting Fantasy and 1e AD&D in the mid '80s I was doing it intuitively. But I recall I spent years ca 2008-12 running linear campaigns using your Points of Light material! I think that's a big danger.
Granted there always more that one could write about this this stuff but in Blackmarsh I do touch on the nuts and bolts of the process I use while running a campaign. As you note this is not the case with Points of Light. Here the relevant passage.
QuoteAdventuring Advice
This format is designed to make it easy to referee players as they explore the world. With a list of locales, it is easy for the referee to determine what is over the next hill and what possible challenges the players might face. In addition, since the players can largely be left to their own devices, this format allows the referee more time to focus on the core adventures in his campaign.
Not every hex location has a description, and the background information is only meant to be a loose framework. Referees are encouraged to add material and make the setting unique to their campaigns.
It is suggested that to get maximum use of this setting that the referee look over the locales, then chose the ones that best suit the campaign. Note the NPCs and their circumstances. Develop a timeline of events if the characters are not involved. Detail important locales and add new ones of your own design. Do the same for the NPCs, and make notes on their motivations and personalities.
After each session of the campaign, review what the players did. Look at your original timeline of events, see what impact their actions had, and make the needed changes. Sometimes the players' actions will lead to a new and unexpected chain of events.
The creativity of the referee comes by not forcing his players to follow a predetermined story, but to develop new and interesting consequences based on the players' actions. Use the NPC's motivations and personalities to decide which consequences are the most likely and pick the most interesting.
The result is a campaign where the players feel they are forging their character's destiny within a living, breathing world. It will not only be fun and adventurous, but also filled with surprises. Consequences will accumulate and spin the campaign into unexpected directions.
Given the brevity of Blackmarsh, I elected to focus on the nuts and bolts how one can use the material in there. Which is something I did not do with any of the settings of Points of Light.
Is this is sufficient? No it only represent what I consider the minimum to get the point across. I agree to have better effect it would need a more complete write up. But based on the feedback I have gotten it does work for some so it not nothing.
As a side note there are two big hurdles when I find when talking people about sandox campaigns. Many novices and experienced players think of RPGs as a game where the only legal things you can do is defined in the rules. The other is that is that RPGs are a form of collaborative storytelling with campaign having a narrative structure that you don't deviate from. These observations are not as black and white as I make them out to be because RPGs by their nature are hybrids and/or kitbashes.
A lot can be learned by asking a hobbyist "What if a players can reasonably do something as his character that is not covered by or contradicts what in your rulebook?". And "Are you willing to let players trash the setting? Or try trashing the setting of the campaign as your character?"
I struggle to think of commercial products that fit this need. In fact, I think WotC's biggest area of neglect with 5E has been in DM support resources. They go on and on about teaching, mentoring, and supporting DMs, but the only products they provide to help DMs run their own games are scripted adventure paths. Where are the books of NPCs, factions, trade caravans, lairs, plug-and-play ruins, etc.? The content in the 5E DMG is pretty good as it goes, with sound advice and some nice random tables. But there's far more they can do to support DM's creating their own setting-based campaigns. New DMs shouldn't have to go poking around dozens of forums looking for bits and pieces.
The best advice I can think of is to give your nephew a good example of a sandbox to provide as a model. If you don't care about edition compatibility, one of the better sandboxes I've come across is the Neverwinter Nights Campaign Setting (4E). The first book of the Night Below boxed set (2E) also makes for a good small-scale sandbox. If you want a sandbox that includes a big dungeon, The Lost City of Barakus (3E) fits the bill. And if system doesn't matter, Griffin Mountain (Runequest) is a classic sandbox.
The absolute most important component to running a sandbox is that the DM is a content creation machine - and that they enjoy it for its own sake as a creative outlet. Even if they're relying on published content exclusively, at best they have bricks they still have to mortar themselves.
That said, I think the campaign section of the 1E DMG discusses the philosophy of sandbox play very well, because SB is what the DMG assumes. For content/idea generation, I don't think there's anything better than Mythmere's Tome of Adventure Design. It not only gives tables, it has lots of discussion on craft.
Quote from: EOTB;1022551The absolute most important component to running a sandbox is that the DM is a content creation machine - and that they enjoy it for its own sake as a creative outlet. Even if they're relying on published content exclusively, at best they have bricks they still have to mortar themselves.
In that case, I am looking for a paper version of
This Old House.
QuoteThat said, I think the campaign section of the 1E DMG discusses the philosophy of sandbox play very well, because SB is what the DMG assumes.
I think it does. Having come from BECMI, then 2e, and having gotten my hands on OD&D, 1e, and B/X as an adult, I definitely understand why so many people speak of these things with such reverence.
I also understand why so many people
didn't get the memo, how railroad adventures and so forth came to be, and so on and so forth, because as philosophical treatises go, these are pretty good. As how-to guides, these are not really that good, especially for 13-14 y.o. starting DMs who have other options. I was fortunate to grow up with a lot of people 5-10 years older than me willing to show me the ropes. I hope to be able to do so for my nephew. But at least in the near term, I hope I can find some good published aids. Thanks veryone for their suggestions.
QuoteFor content/idea generation, I don't think there's anything better than Mythmere's Tome of Adventure Design. It not only gives tables, it has lots of discussion on craft.
Including this one. I will look into it as soon as I am in a position to purchase and download things freely.
Quote from: Haffrung;1022525I struggle to think of commercial products that fit this need.
I was just thinking this is a product gap that someone could fill. A system neutral book specifically on sandboxing and hexcrawling procedures. Starting out very detailed with charts and systems, and progressing into theory and suggestions.
How often do you see the young man? Because really, the best way is to spend a single afternoon with him and just walk him through a few random outdoor encounters just like we used to do. A little mentoring will be far more effective than any amount of reading.
After my GaryCon OD&D game four years ago, a young man in the group caught up to me the next day and we spent all afternoon talking about how to ref. It really works.
Probably 2x a month, less so if you count only the times where talking shop is possible. This upcoming year with us looking for a house and him getting more involved with scouts and late middle-school, it might be less. I think that's the insecurity that is making me hope for a published crutch to help. But you are of course right, the best way to help is to show, and hands-on teaching, etc.
The best generators at donjon are well hidden and easy to overlook. They are under Fantasy on the left tab.
Quests:
http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/random/#type=Quest
Dungeon Encounters:
http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/random/#type=encounter;enc-type=Dungeon
Road Encounters:
http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/random/#type=encounter;enc-type=Road
Sea Encounters:
http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/random/#type=encounter;enc-type=Sea
Town Encounters:
http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/random/#type=encounter;enc-type=Town
Wilderness Encounters:
http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/random/#type=encounter;enc-type=Wilderness
Worlds & Planes:
http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/random/#type=World
You can fill your sandbox very easy with this baby! :D
My roll on Wilderness:
Ulflald, a male human bounty hunter tracking a gang of brigands. He has broken his ankle in a goblin's trap, and begs for help.
A female dwarf ranger named Irugg Hranidotr. She protects the lair of a great bronze dragon against adventurers.
The temperature suddenly drops greatly.
Shimmering curtains of yellow light dance across the sky.
A shambling mound of vines lurks in the undergrowth.
A male dwarf ranger named Thakam. He seeks to destroy a local tribe of ogres.
A great white hart stands in a sunlit clearing, watching intently.
A male human ranger named Aerelm. He has an animal companion, a hawk named Munda.
An elemental tree stands ahead, oozing acidic sap from fissures in its trunk.
Gili, a female dwarf herbalist collecting plants. She has found a copper ring, which she believes is magical.
My Worlds:
Brithone: A medieval plane of storm-wracked seas and forested islands, beneath a starlit sky. The plane is primarily populated by elves, with smaller numbers of other races.
Para: A corrupted plane of fields of flame and seas of lava, filled with decaying ruins. The plane is primarily populated by devils, and manticores.
Londolas: An elemental realm of sapphire water, filled with columns of crystal and the sound of horns. The realm is primarily populated by kraken, and nereids.
Essearnis: A desolate realm of broken hills, shadowed valleys, and trackless deserts. The realm is utterly lifeless and uninhabited.
Hellonde: An elemental world of sapphire water, filled with mountains of ice and floating motes of light. The world is the domain of Turgoli, a deity of oceans, and is populated by sea dragons. The denizens of Hellonde are at war with invading demons.
Tirine: A mystical realm of silver mountains, sapphire lakes, and vast oceans. The realm is primarily populated by trolls, with a few nymphs.
Vallione: A ruined plane of shadowed valleys, cratered battlefields, and poisoned oceans. The plane is utterly lifeless and uninhabited.
Sama: A sealed plane of barrier peaks and fathomless seas, where all magic fails. The plane is the prison of an ancient gold dragon, bound by magical chains.
Nyamene: A fiery world of black peaks and ashen valleys, beneath clouds of cinders and ash. The world is the domain of Galinduil, a demi-goddess of chaos, and is populated by fire elementals. The denizens of Nyamene are at war with invading devils.
Thimlone: An elemental world of silver mountains and rocky deserts. The world is sparsely populated by blue dragons. It is also the location of the Crypts of Chthonic Terror, a legendary dungeon of earth elementals.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1022620How often do you see the young man? Because really, the best way is to spend a single afternoon with him and just walk him through a few random outdoor encounters just like we used to do. A little mentoring will be far more effective than any amount of reading.
After my GaryCon OD&D game four years ago, a young man in the group caught up to me the next day and we spent all afternoon talking about how to ref. It really works.
Absolutely this.
I think what everyone seems to be missing is that sandboxing isn't just tables of random shit. The young man doesn't need to know any of that; that's what the tables are for. What he needs to know is how to GM. I think that Monster of the Week gives some of the best advice for GMing ever. One of the strengths of the PbtA games is that it hard codes as rules all of the many things that successful GM's already do. I've been GMing off and on over thirty years and there were many things that I just didn't know to do until I started reading through PbtA games, but MotW in particular.
Be a fan of the players.
Play to see what happens.
No NPC is immune to death or defeat (even in the first act).
Stuff like that. Then the GM can take the most railroady railroad of an adventure or a sandbox and it doesn't matter. The skills of great GMing are already there.
When should you make the players roll?
Talk about character death beforehand to see where everyone is at.
What happens when the player does [X] and I don't know what to do? (Don't be afraid to take a minute or five and think it through.)
Or what happens when I as GM screw up? How do I fix it? Should I get player input?
What if I freeze up or get tongue-tied?
I think that whatever resource is recommended should at least attempt to answer these kinds of questions. I'm trying to think back at when I first started with games like the B/X D&D (Metzner? I guess? It's been decades...) and what advice did they give? Gronan can obviously speak extensively on this. Or the LBB Traveler books.
I don't mean to denigrate anyone's suggestions here, btw. It's all good, but maybe aimed at a GM with just a stronger skillset than what I'm guessing is being requested.
And this is in conjunction with talking with the young man, hopefully not in lieu of.
Quote from: CausticJedi;1022686I think what everyone seems to be missing is that sandboxing isn't just tables of random shit. The young man doesn't need to know any of that; that's what the tables are for. What he needs to know is how to GM. I think that Monster of the Week gives some of the best advice for GMing ever. One of the strengths of the PbtA games is that it hard codes as rules all of the many things that successful GM's already do. I've been GMing off and on over thirty years and there were many things that I just didn't know to do until I started reading through PbtA games, but MotW in particular.
Sure, and in this specific example, it's a valid option.
But part of the trouble where so much was lost and had to be rediscovered through the OSR was that those experiences were not sufficiently explained when TSR published the rules for a mass audience. So while I do agree with you and Gronan on this point, I think having something like an OSR primer focused on sandbox and hexcrawl campaigns would be a pretty neat resource for new GMs and experienced ones who are not as familiar with the ideas.
Quote from: EOTB;1022551For content/idea generation, I don't think there's anything better than Mythmere's Tome of Adventure Design. It not only gives tables, it has lots of discussion on craft.
Cool. I'll check it out.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1022701Sure, and in this specific example, it's a valid option.
But part of the trouble where so much was lost and had to be rediscovered through the OSR was that those experiences were not sufficiently explained when TSR published the rules for a mass audience. So while I do agree with you and Gronan on this point, I think having something like an OSR primer focused on sandbox and hexcrawl campaigns would be a pretty neat resource for new GMs and experienced ones who are not as familiar with the ideas.
Oh, sure, I absolutely agree with you too. Yes, talking face to face is probably the best but not for everyone and not everyone has another experienced GM available to have discussions with either. Having a solid written resource would be great; I know I've seen systemless books written on "how to GM" but for the life of me, can't recall a single one. The ones I remember are all system specific which can be a turn off for many people. Like I know well that many people dislike the PbtA systems so my recommendation would be useless for them. Similarly, I would at least hesitate a good while if someone recommended me a book that was written for D&D 5e; I have zero interest in the system, zero desire to even play with that rule set, and so I don't know if I'd want to spend money on a book which I wouldn't get full use out of.
I like hoarding maps for those times groups decide to go off on complete tangents. Google+ has been a great resource as well as Dyson's Dodecahedron. That way I don't need to try and come up with mini-dungeons, ruins, or lairs off the cuff and I free up my time to make maps that are more important for my own game.
When I was a kid I liked to make a hexmap rolling up random terrain and contents using the DMG appendices. The settings made no sense whatsoever, but at that age one doesn't care.