I stop by the webcomic Penny Arcade for the first time in a while and find that they're on a rant about some review for Neverwinter Nights 2.  Namely, the game got a score usually reserved for trash games whose publishers never advertise for the publication in question, so it makes the game a fair target for ridicule and abuse.

For those unfamiliar with Neverwinter Nights, its the D&D 3.5 ruleset in computer form.  It's a toolkit designed to allow the creation of computerized D&D games.  If you're a geezer like me, think Adventure Construction Set, only more advanced.

Anyway, the review can be found here:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/docs/nwn2review.html

I'm also copying so that if it is removed, this thread might still make sense:

Quote5/10

Quote: By Matt Peckham
This review appears in the January issue of Games For Windows: The Official Magazine.


----

As everything-the-original-did -- and more -- follow-ups go, Neverwinter Nights 2 deserves a banner & something like "mission accomplished." Think the sequel to Jurassic Park, where Spielberg's all "You want more dinosaurs? I'll show you more dinosaurs..." As a contemporary CRPG, on the other hand, NWN2 leaves a lot to be desired, and that's too bad, because these are the guys who brought us Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale 2...and therefore they are the guys I'm least inclined to take issue with.

But issues exist, and defining them is really no more complex than saying, "Hello D&D superchrome, buh-bye storytelling and character development (you know, those things you're supposed to "immerse" yourself in)." The idea seems to be that we're meant to rah-rah about a superabundance of feats, spells, races, prestige (advanced) classes, and math-equation tickers full of the usual "I attack you with a +4 sword of --" booooooring. Fine, sure, dandy...but when is a "role" not a "role"? Simple: when it's a rule to a fault.

Ever loyal bites
I'm cruising for a bruising (don't I know it), but NWN2 is a splash of cold water to the face: A revelatory, polarizing experience that -- in the wake of newer, better alternatives -- makes you question the very notion of "RPG by numbers." It foists Wizards of the Coast's latest v3.5 D&D system (a molehill that's become a mountain at this point) onto your hard drive with stunning fidelity, then tacks on dozens of artificial-looking areas vaguely linked by forget-table plot points you check off like grocery to-do's.

Sure, the interface is sleeker with context-sensitive menus and a smart little bar that lets you more intuitively toggle modes like "power attack" and "stealth," but with all the added rule-shuffling, NWN2 seems like it's working twice as hard to accomplish half as much. Worse -- and blame this on games like Oblivion -- NWN2's levels feel pint-sized: Peewee zones inhabited by pull-string NPCs with no existence to speak of beyond their little playpens. Wander and you'll wonder why the forests, towns, and dungeons are like movie lots with lay-about monsters waiting patiently for you to trip their arbitrary triggers. As if the pencil and paper "module" approach were a virtue that computers -- by now demonstrably capable of simulating entire worlds with considerably more depth -- should emulate. It's like we're supposed to park half our brain in feature mania and the rest in nostalgic slush, and somehow call bingo.

The dungeons feel especially stale, so linear and inorganic they might as well be graph-paper lifts filled with room after room of pop-up bogeymen (Doom put them in closets; NWN2 just makes the closets bigger). Maybe you'd rather chat with the dumb NPCs that speak and sound like extras in a bad Saturday morning cartoon? Oh, boy -- there's the portrait "plus" sign! Time to shuffle another party member (improved to four simultaneous) through the level-up grinder, which you can click "recommend" to zip past...but then, what's the point?

Rule-playing game
In all fairness, it's not entirely developer Obsidian's fault. D&D certainly puts the "rule" in role-playing, and a madcap base of D&D aficionados is no doubt ready to string me up for suggesting that faithful is here tantamount to folly (to these people, I say: "Go for it, NWN2's all you've ever wanted and more"). Call me crazy -- I guess I'm just finally weary of being led around on a pencil-and-paper leash and batting numbers around a glorified three-dimensional spreadsheet in a computer translation that should have synthesized, not forklifted.

That five-of-10 is actually a hedge, by the way. For D&D fans who want to play an amazingly thorough PC translation of the system they're carting around in book form, it's proba-bly closer an eight or nine. But if, like me, you want less "rules for rule's sake" and more depth and beauty to your simulated game worlds, you can certainly find more exciting prospects. Part of the reason we call them "the good old days" and think fondly of games past is that it's always easier to love what we don't have to play anymore.

The one thing I find interesting about this review is that it uses the same exact arguments the "real roleplayers" level against D&D.  Yet, the solution of this writer doesn't seem to be to suddenly start playing some more abstract pen and paper game.  His solution is to seek out some other electronic game.  He finds the "limitless" creativity of a tool set constraining, and seeks a predefined story with flashier graphics.  He not only seems to deride D&D as being nostalgia driven, but the entire genre of pen and paper RPGs as being some kind of deviation we should all abandon (perhaps for Elder Scrolls: Oblivion).

Thoughts?

To most hard core computer gamers, WE ARE the dinosaurs, man.

It's just the ramblings of someone who's obviously never actually played either D&D, or any other tabletop RPG for that matter.

I put it up there with the idiot on Evil Avatar who, on the basis of D&D Online, declared the D&D was broken as a game and that it was only good for roleplaying and storytelling.  Though at least that guy gave me a laugh.

This worthless troll of a review mostly made me feel sad for the guy, considering that as a result of his foot-in-mouth-head-in-ass syndrome, he's now the goddamn laughingstock of the online vidgaming community.

Quote from: GabrielThoughts?

He actually has a point.  The problem with the original NWN was, indeed, that it was little more than a D&D battle simulator with paper-thin characterization and development.

The argument isn't that the pen-and-paper ruleset is constraining, but rather that it's propped up in place of what makes a gaming experience truly superlative.  Look at the examples he cites as games Bioware should be living up to:  Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale 2.

The second is a game that's tactically rewarding.  Diablo in slow motion using the D&D ruleset, you might say.  The former is one of the best character-driven games ever produced, and it uses the old AD&D ruleset.

His point is that NWN is nothing but a shallow spreadsheet of number-crunching and boring, mostly-automated combat.  There's nothing there to grab you and make you take notice like there was with the previous games.  NWN2, rather than working on the "shallow gameplay, lame NPCs and storyline" problems, just shoves more D&D-isms at the audience in the hope that the "more gizmos wow!" shopping catalog effect will blind us to the game's continued shallowness.

That it's meant as a toolset is really no excuse, because it needs to stand on its own as a playable game in and of itself.  Otherwise Bioware might as well have marketed it as FRUA 2.

NWN1 basically WAS Unlimited Adventures 2.  

However, thing is, his criticisms of the gameplay of NWN2 aren't accurate at all.  I've been playing it, and it's worlds better than NWN1's campaign, or even the expansions.  

I would go so far as to say that the whole dual choice path once you get to Neverwinter is one of the most brilliantly executed storylines ever placed in a video game.  

What I get from his review is "I don't like D&D, D&D is for geeks, I only played for half an hour and then dumped it, and now I'm pannign the hell out if it to make myself seem edgy and cool."

There are some legitimate criticisms to be had when it comes to NWN2, and he touches on none of them.  The game has a number of technical issues, bugs and such.  But he hits none of those.

Quote from: J ArcaneNWN1 basically WAS Unlimited Adventures 2.

I almost argued that it had a campaign included, and then I remembered the truth.  

Quote from: J ArcaneHowever, thing is, his criticisms of the gameplay of NWN2 aren't accurate at all.  I've been playing it, and it's worlds better than NWN1's campaign, or even the expansions.  

I would go so far as to say that the whole dual choice path once you get to Neverwinter is one of the most brilliantly executed storylines ever placed in a video game.

Ah, well I haven't had a chance to play it so I wouldn't know.  Perhaps he simply phoned in his review?

Quote from: J ArcaneWhat I get from his review is "I don't like D&D, D&D is for geeks, I only played for half an hour and then dumped it, and now I'm pannign the hell out if it to make myself seem edgy and cool."

So why's he cop to Planescape Torment and IWD2 being so awesome?

Quote from: RedFoxI almost argued that it had a campaign included, and then I remembered the truth.  

I really enjoyed the OC the first time I played.  But I will never ever play it again.  Meanwhile I've played through Hordes countless times now, most of them multiplayer.  

QuoteAh, well I haven't had a chance to play it so I wouldn't know.  Perhaps he simply phoned in his review?

That's my theory.  The initial portion of the game, the fair and the cbattle in your home village, and the ruins, are fairly weak.  But once you get out on the road, meet your first party members, and especially once you actually get to Neverwinter proper, it shines like a radiant sun with awesome.

QuoteSo why's he cop to Planescape Torment and IWD2 being so awesome?

Well, in terms of P:T, that one used 2nd Ed rules, right?  2nd Ed rules really aren't that crunchy at all when you've got a computer handling the rules for you.  

As for IWD2, everything I heard suggested that game sucked ass, so I've stayed far away.  How detailed was the rules implementation in IWD2?

Quote from: J ArcaneI really enjoyed the OC the first time I played.  But I will never ever play it again.  Meanwhile I've played through Hordes countless times now, most of them multiplayer.  

Hordes was really quite fun.

Quote from: J ArcaneWell, in terms of P:T, that one used 2nd Ed rules, right?  2nd Ed rules really aren't that crunchy at all when you've got a computer handling the rules for you.

Yup, 2nd Edition AD&D I think.  At least, it had proficiences.

Quote from: J ArcaneAs for IWD2, everything I heard suggested that game sucked ass, so I'm realy just baffled by that.  How detailed was the rules implementation in IWD2?

I never played it.  I have IWD, but that apparently uses an entirely different ruleset, with IWD2 using a bastardized D&D3.0 or something.

Either way, the IWD series was basically, as I said, Diablo-via-D&D in slow motion.  You'd get a mission, leave town, and chop through screen after screen of enemies until you got to the next town, etc.

I think he's, you know, comparing it to other CRPG's on the Market.
 
A friend of mine got it, and he said "the game, so far, is boring, but ooh wait you can be a Shadowdancer!" Pretty much exactly what the reviewer was saying. As a game, it sucked, if people want to pick it up to run their own D&D campaigns in it, it will do what they want, for those that aren't, it's a very crappy single player campaign.
 
What it comes down to is this. Tabletop games work as tabletop games for a reason. DM runs the game in his free time, and usually doesn't charge his friends $50 to play with him. CRPG's are a totally different ballgame. Freedom of choice, good story, and high production values are what makes a good CRPG
 
I think they pulled it because of their advertisers. D&D and NWN are both heavily advertised on 1up and CGW.

Clearly there's a market for this product.  The reviewer is not in the target demographic.  I think the review tells me what would need to know in order to make a purchase decision.  If I want an online interface for 3.5, then this thing is perfect.  If I want a fantasy CRPG it may be less than ideal, as the state of the art has moved beyond the parameters of the pen-and-paper world.  So basicaly, the reviewer confirms that this game is exactly what I expected it to be.

Would there have even been a controversy had the guy given the game an 8?

To get off-topic, NWN1 has some old D&D adventures as modules, anyone ever tried one? Worth dusting the box off again?

QuoteAdventure Construction Set,

HOLY !@#!$@ YES!!!  

That's the best game ever.  EV3R!!!@$!@!!!!111





Okay... back to reading the rest of thread...

Quote from: StuartHOLY !@#!$@ YES!!!  

That's the best game ever.  EV3R!!!@$!@!!!!111

While we're on the subject, I adored that game.  Did anyone else think the music was awesome?

you know, the good thing about this is at least the reviewer doesn't blame it for not being Narrativist.

regardless, the interview has been pulled/rescinded, so i'm not sure if that's supposed to make PA look good for pointing out the stupidity of it, or 1UP/GfW look like asses for not sticking to their guns.

QuoteWhile we're on the subject, I adored that game. Did anyone else think the music was awesome?

YES!!!

(hmm.  maybe too much coffee this morning...)

Seriously though, my brother and I spent more time with ACS than any other game we owned.  I'd seriously say Adventure Construction Set and Grim Fandango are my 2 favourite games ever.