I'm okay with D&D as-is.

I might tighten up the skills a little bit, and make Appraise more useful.  Maybe tweak some of the Classes.  I particularly like the "get something at every level" suggestion on Wizards' board.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI suppose, as a sacred cow, this is also one of those things that lends the distinct D&D flavor to D&D.  There are many other games out there that use your very suggestion, skill or ability checks in lieu of an abstraction in the form of a Saving Throw.

At what point, though, does stripping away sacred cows make the game "not D&D"?  I'm caused to think of when Avalon Hill was designing RuneQuest: Slayers and adapting a lot of elements to fit the D&D 2e model more closely.  There were characteristics of the old game still there, but it was RuneQuest in name only.

!i!

I would say that the Sacred cows are all that make up "D&D" as a concept, since there are plenty of D20 fantasy games that are obviously fantasy, but are obviously NOT D&D in how they play. True20 is an obvious example of this.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RedFoxI'm okay with D&D as-is.

I might tighten up the skills a little bit, and make Appraise more useful.  Maybe tweak some of the Classes.  I particularly like the "get something at every level" suggestion on Wizards' board.

I'm with you there entirely.  I like D&D for what it is, and don't see any reason to try and make it something else.

I think if you're going to all this effort to try and make it something else, you need to ask yourself two questions:

1)  Why the hell am I not jsut designing my own system from scratch?

2)  How the hell can I claim to be so gung-ho about D&D while wanting to abort so many parts of it?

I miss the ten foot pole. :deflated:

Quote from: J ArcaneI'm with you there entirely.  I like D&D for what it is, and don't see any reason to try and make it something else.

I think if you're going to all this effort to try and make it something else, you need to ask yourself two questions:

1)  Why the hell am I not jsut designing my own system from scratch?

2)  How the hell can I claim to be so gung-ho about D&D while wanting to abort so many parts of it?

Precisely. Hell, for that matter, you wouldn't even have to make up your own game from scratch. There are thousands of other RPGs out there, surely to fuck one or more of 'em should fit the bill for you. Why fuck with D&D? It sure as hell seems awfully popular for a game that needs so much "fixed." I'm also of the school of thought that stripping away sacred cows will eventually reach a point where the game is no longer D&D. Why? Again, if so much about D&D pains you, find another game. It's not like there's a shortage of 'em out there.

Things that are sacred cows, that make D&D, D&D, and should be kept:

* Classes
* Level-based advancement
* Saving throws
* Ability scores, especially the 3-18 (or 20, really) spread (for fuck sake, put 'em to work, like in Iron Heroes, rather than eliminate 'em)
* Hit points
* Vancian magic
* Alignments

There are probably more, but those are the major ones. Now, I don't mind variant or optional rules, and there are plenty of 'em out there if you wanna tweak your D&D game to taste. WotC itself provided some in the DMG, and then went and produced a whole book of variants and options with Unearthed Arcana. So go get UA, or make your own House Rules, and leave D&D the fuck alone.

Stuff in d20 D&D I like that may not be sacred cows, but is worthwhile stuff nonetheless:

* Prestige classes - just because a deluge of bullshit PrC's appeared with the advent of the concept, doesn't mean it isn't a cool concept. Done right - and there are plenty of 'em that are done right - Prestige Classes can really add flavor to a campaign. Just be choosy about the ones you use. The gaming police won't kick down your door if you don't use every single one in your game. I promise.

* Feats - In my own opinion, feats are, indeed, sacred cows of d20. Same deal with Prestige Classes; just because a lot of 'em suck, doesn't mean the concept itself does. They're nifty ways to differentiate characters, and make the fighter a really worthwhile, flavorful class, at long last.

Don't like 'em? Then play another game, like C&C. I mean, why the fuck make D&D more like C&C, anyway? Both can, and should, exist as separate entities. They satisfy the needs of their respective audiences.

Quote from: One Horse TownI miss the ten foot pole. :deflated:

Yeah, me too. Of the things de-emphasized, if not outright eliminated by 3e, I also dig: wandering monsters/random encounters, vorpal weapons, and "save or die" spells and effects. They're easy enough to put back in, though, and even WotC has done work on random encounter charts.

I definitely like D&D, and some of its sacred cows. Others, I'm not so hot on; and overall, I'd have to say that I'm a bigger fan of D20 than D&D 3.x (which is why I laugh very hard at the notion that they're one and the same).  That said, I'm also a realist, and I recognize that there are things in D20 that are not perfect, to me, attacks of opportunity, prestige classes, and feats are some of these.

You can like, even love, a system without having to think its flawless, you know.

RPGPundit

I don't see a whole lot about D&D 3e that I'd necessarily chuck as a sacred cow. Classes, levels, alignment, and prestige classes are all things that make the game fun for me.

There are things that could tidy up the game and make it flow a bit smoother, but those would be revisions vice excisement. For example, I think there needs to be something better than iterative attacks, and there needs to be a better way to balance unusual creatures as PCs than LA.

I'll come out with one thing about 3e that I would happily see go the way of the dodo: point buy attributes.

Quote from: RPGPundit...That said, I'm also a realist, and I recognize that there are things in D20 that are not perfect, to me, attacks of opportunity, prestige classes, and feats are some of these.
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'Prestige classes' are optional even in straight-up 3e D&D (and I never did understand what they added to the game that couldn't be accomplished through restricted feats).

Depending on how widely you understand 'D20', AoOs can be dispensed with as well.  It would be damn hard to do that in 3e D&D, given how many other rules depend on AoOs, but d20 CoC gets rid of AoOs.  

Only 'feats' look absolutely essential.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson...fuck...fuck...fuck sake...fuck...fuck...

Wow Colonel!  Obviously this is a topic that raises your blood pressure.  

As I see it, sacred cows are central to the identity of any game, including D&D. By stripping them away or changing them beyond recognition, you make That Game into Not That Game Anymore. Certainly, it is highly subjective which parts are sacred and which are not: some, for example, think a game can be still D&D without saving throws, Vancian magic or hit points, but I do not. Others may draw this line a lot more strictly.

The 3-18 spread for attributes is, for me, easily the most frustrating thing about D20/D&D 3.X, because it's so very,very pointless and, as far as I'm aware, is used for precisely nothing, with the exception of the requirements for feats (and re-jigging them to work off the stat bonus instead is trivial). True20 proved that you can manage just fine with doing away with them and make the stat boosts for levelling up a little more sparse.

There is no reason for the 3-18 spread to exist, except to maintain the feel of earlier editions of the game - but because the 3-18 scores are never used for anything, the charade is all too painfully obvious.

IMHO, one of then biggest sacred cows of D&D is not actually in the core mechanics.  Magic.  Lots and lots of magic.  I mean, there are tables and tables of the stuff in the DMG.  A low magic game isn't really D&D.