Quote from: HaffrungThat is my whole point; you didn't need a PHB for each player back in the 1E days because players weren't expected to learn and master the whole ruleset

Except the designer has specifically said otherwise.

Moreover, this isn't an indication of good design. Rather the opposite. If players didn't need or reference their books, it was because the actual rules were so mind-numbing that they were ignored and thus the need for a reference was minimized.

Quote from: HaffrungYou can learn everything you need to know to optimize a dwarf fighter in 1E in about five minutes of browsing the PHB.

Once again, you say stupid things that just aren't true.

Seanchai

Quote from: Elliot WilenIf you played strictly by the book, then...no.

And where does it say in the PHB that the players shouldn't know all the rules in there? And where does it say in the DMG that the DM shouldn't know all the rules in there? Sorry, but a quote about how the players shouldn't know the monster's stats doesn't cut it...

Seanchai

Quote from: jeff37923That makes sense, now for a followup question.

Do you think that a marketable demographic for gamers are those gamers who are now parents of children who are interested in tabletop RPGs? A demographic which would be interested in a game that is simple enough to teach the kids while also being complex enough to keep the interest of the parents?

It's the same demographic that's playing HeroScape right now. It's not a rpg, but going by the people with whom I've played, met at cons, and met on-line, the lion's share of the HS audience is gamer dads and their kids. Huge market.

Quote from: SeanchaiIt's stuff like this that makes me certain you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Yes, skills and Feats are new. But AD&D had stuff like THAC0 charts, 18/00 Strength, racial ability caps, differing XP charts, weapon proficiencies, weapon speeds, weapon sizes/space required, damage versus opponents, etc. Clearly, back in the day, all the player had to know back in the day was which die to roll for damage...

I played ADnD for several years, some of us had books, some not, after chargen we knew our characters' respective strengths and had the bonuses on our sheets, racial ability caps likewise was a chargen issue, we needed one book between us for xp, I don't recall us using weapon proficiencies much though I may just have forgotten, we certainly didn't use weapon speed or size/space required nor damage v opponents as that was all too fiddly.  People in my group bought the PHB if they also GMed, if they didn't take a turn in the GM chair they didn't buy the PHB.

So from where I'm sitting Haffrung's comments look pretty credible, and you're going way overboard on him.

I note reading through further comments that on this, one of the grognardiest sites I know, Seanchai was the only one who used all those rules.  As we know, even Gygax didn't use weapon speed.

Haffrung made the correct point earlier, the comparison is with ADnD as it was played and 3e as it is played.  3e is less amenable to houseruling or dropping bits out than ADnD, for good or ill, therefore not only does it not surprise me that people stick to the rules more with current editions that was in fact my understanding prior to this thread.

It was also as I recall one of the more common criticisms of 3e from the grognard brigade, that it was unusually difficult to houserule.  It used to come up a lot on rpg.net that point.

3e is more intricate and interconnected than older versions of DnD, that was of course an intentional design decision to emphasise concepts of players learning to master the rules.  A consequence of that is an increased need for copies of the current PHB.

With all due respect to Seanchai, I think everyone on this thread but him knows that and I'd suggest not rising to any more futile arguments on a point we all know perfectly well.  3e (including 3.5e obviously) requires the PHB more than was the case in ADnD, one can view that as the result of a bug or a feature but it is I think beyond rational argument.

We used weapon speed, space required and AC adjustment for weapons in one of our ad&d campaigns. Made quite a big difference for my dwarf Thief, i can tell you. Luckily, we also used to have 'feats' every 2 levels, so i was able to offset the AC adjustments for my dagger somewhat. We never had a problem with it. Simply write the stuff on your character sheet. No refering to the players handbook at all for that.

Quote from: stu2000It's the same demographic that's playing HeroScape right now. It's not a rpg, but going by the people with whom I've played, met at cons, and met on-line, the lion's share of the HS audience is gamer dads and their kids. Huge market.

I fall in that group. My kids would play D&D every day if they could. More things like D&D game day and cons need to be better advertised in places that dads like me frequent. I think the anecdotal evidence is in, that there are a lot of Dads playing D&D with kids. In fact I wonder if its becoming a tradition of sorts.

Fuck this shit, there goes the post I just typed up--Balbinus already said it all.

But I said it beautifully!

Quote from: SettembriniI´m amazed about how much we have learned about the new Story-D20!

Isn´t that something?

Well, we did learn that Ryan's planning to write not one but several RPGs.

Me, I'm impressed.

Quote from: VBWyrdeWhat about NeverWinter Nights?

Licensed video games are fun, but I'd rather have had roleplaying computer support, expressly designed for the TTRPG.

Heck, I'd go one step further: designed in conjunction with the RPG.

I think this would have gone a long way into making 3e more convivial.

Quote from: BalbinusSeanchai was the only one who used all those rules.

I'm not sure why you think that.

Quote from: BalbinusHaffrung made the correct point earlier, the comparison is with ADnD as it was played and 3e as it is played.

And that helps us how? If the basis of talking about AD&D 1st edition in this thread is predictive and people house ruled the crap out it, how are people's experiences with AD&D 1st edition applicable?

Quote from: Balbinus3e is less amenable to houseruling or dropping bits out than ADnD, for good or ill, therefore not only does it not surprise me that people stick to the rules more with current editions that was in fact my understanding prior to this thread.

Or it could be that there's much less need to house rule and ignore elements of the game. It could also be that it's much easier to get a rulebook, that they're more affordable, that people are curious about the game and picked on it, it could be that more people play, or any number of other reasons why 3e has outsold AD&D 1st edition beyond the supposition that you didn't need the AD&D PHB as much as you need the 3e one.

Seanchai

Quote from: One Horse TownWe used weapon speed, space required and AC adjustment for weapons in ... ad&d

Me too.

Say, Pierce, what was that bit about passive-aggressive one-liners?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWell, we did learn that Ryan's planning to write not one but several RPGs.

Me, I'm impressed.

I might be impressed when I see them. I'm not impressed by grand plans. I've been roleplaying for a long time, and a lot of game products were talked about and promised over that time. Lots of them claimed they'd be revolutionising the industry which was, apparently, dying.

Remember that roleplaying is the bastard child of David Weseley, and was adopted by Gygax and Arneson, and before D&D was even published they'd already split over how things should be done.

Just imagine if the internet had been around during that split. "The approach the other guy is taking will kill roleplaying! My approach is much better."

As of the recent Fear the Boot episode, Ryan has played Burning Wheel a whopping single time, and has read and heard about DitV.
He´d like to play DitV sometime in the future.

Go figure.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI might be impressed when I see them.

So far those "Story-games" are marginal part of marginal hobby. If Ryan Dancey would sell his vision to significant number of players (of D&D/d20/whatever) I will be impressed. Let's say, that significant numbers begin with 50,000 souls for the record. Also if I will think his ideas are brilliant I will be impressed. Although I've read a good dozen of those "revolutionary" games very few of them impressed me so far. So I wish you luck Ryan, but I am sceptical about it. Sorry.