Ryan Dancey’s Storyteller’s Guide to The D20 System

estar · October 05, 2007, 10:15:34 AM

Quote from: CabIn that one statement he betrays the fact that he's speaking out of his arse. That isn't the traditional way to play D&D, it is not DM versus players, its a game where the DM creates challenges appropriate to the PCs within the context of a shared story. Or, in other words, a 'cooperative storytelling mode'.

What a pile of complete tosh.

I agree with the challenges part but it only a shared story in that it results from the player interacting with the DM's plot. What Dancey means by cooperative storytelling is very different than what you are defining as cooperative storytelling.

In Dancey's vision the "plot" the players are interacting with is created by the group on the fly. The problem of that is that the resulting challenges are purely mechanical (i.e. fighting some monster, making rolls, etc). In my opinion while there is fun in that it is inherently limited compared to the plots a DM can come up with.

J Arcane · October 05, 2007, 10:21:24 AM

QuoteThere's a difference between "competitive" and "adversarial". In one, each is using their abilities to a strong degree to give the other an interesting challenge, and to each do their best for personal excellence. In the other, each tries to destroy the other.

Now who's not using the commonly accepted language. The terminology of the "adversarial GM" has been used as a descriptor for some styles of D&D play for years and years, and for good reason.

Again, drop the point, it's weak and pathetic, and says far more about your determination to be as judgemental as possible to playstyles foreign to you, than it does about Mr. Dancey.

Cab · October 05, 2007, 10:23:27 AM

Quote from: estarI agree with the challenges part but it only a shared story in that it results from the player interacting with the DM's plot. What Dancey means by cooperative storytelling is very different than what you are defining as cooperative storytelling.

In Dancey's vision the "plot" the players are interacting with is created by the group on the fly. The problem of that is that the resulting challenges are purely mechanical (i.e. fighting some monster, making rolls, etc). In my opinion while there is fun in that it is inherently limited compared to the plots a DM can come up with.

There really isn't a difference. In either game the DM starts with a premis, the players find that and then the PCs do what the players choose. The distinction between interractive storeytelling and roleplaying is entirely artificial.

J Arcane · October 05, 2007, 10:24:52 AM

Quote from: CabThere really isn't a difference. In either game the DM starts with a premis, the players find that and then the PCs do what the players choose. The distinction between interractive storeytelling and roleplaying is entirely artificial.

No it isn't. Nowhere in any D&D game I've ever played have the players been able to bid points to force the DM to go along with whatever cockamamie bullshit they've come up with in a given moment.

Cab · October 05, 2007, 10:26:33 AM

Quote from: J ArcaneNo it isn't. Nowhere in any D&D game I've ever played have the players been able to bid points to force the DM to go along with whatever cockamamie bullshit they've come up with in a given moment.

Thats not interractive storeytelling, its an adversarial roleplaying game. So yes, theres a difference between adversarial RPGs and RPGs, but no difference between RPGs and interractive storeytelling.

arminius · October 05, 2007, 10:47:27 AM

I have no idea what you're talking about Cab. Maybe not your fault. Folks, I could follow better if you'd use plain English instead of arguing definitions.

Weekly · October 05, 2007, 10:47:58 AM

Quote from: CabWell, I rekon most players aren't power gamers, but they'll try to do the best in a tight situation with the character they have (and rightly so). But as for this streamlined stuff, what he's saying is not keeping tight track of trivialities when you trust your players. I think most of us have always done that.

That depends of course of your definition of power-gaming. Mine is 'making the best of your character within the parameters of the game'. I realize it may be wider than most people's. And yes, if 'not keeping track of trivialities' is what he means by 'Streamlining', I'm anxiously waiting for Rancey Dancey's Guide of Round Implements One Can Use To Move Things With.

Cab · October 05, 2007, 10:49:32 AM

Quote from: Elliot WilenI have no idea what you're talking about Cab. Maybe not your fault. Folks, I could follow better if you'd use plain English instead of arguing definitions.

My previous comment followed on from the posts made before it; read back a few messages, it'll become clear.

Cab · October 05, 2007, 10:51:51 AM

Quote from: WeeklyThat depends of course of your definition of power-gaming. Mine is 'making the best of your character within the parameters of the game'. I realize it may be wider than most people's. And yes, if 'not keeping track of trivialities' is what he means by 'Streamlining', I'm anxiously waiting for Rancey Dancey's Guide of Round Implements One Can Use To Move Things With.

Maybe you misunderstood my first point... By making the best out of your character, I'm simply talking about the player working out what the character should do in a situation. Assuming the character really wants what they're doing to work, the player should come up with how the character would do his or her best to get something done. So, to pick a crude example, it isn't powergaming to use a longbow rather than to throw a spear at a target sixty feet away, its the character doing whats best. It ain't powergaming.

Blackleaf · October 05, 2007, 10:52:00 AM

Quote from: CabThats not interractive storeytelling, its an adversarial roleplaying game. So yes, theres a difference between adversarial RPGs and RPGs, but no difference between RPGs and interractive storeytelling.

I think we're all using terms like roleplaying, storytelling, interactive, competitive and adversarial to mean slightly different things.

Cab · October 05, 2007, 10:53:17 AM

Quote from: StuartI think we're all using terms like roleplaying, storytelling, interactive, competitive and adversarial to mean slightly different things.

Maybe. Although you should have a look at that posting you replied to in the context of those that preceded it, I picked the term 'adversarial' up for a reason.

J Arcane · October 05, 2007, 10:59:25 AM

Quote from: CabMaybe you misunderstood my first point... By making the best out of your character, I'm simply talking about the player working out what the character should do in a situation. Assuming the character really wants what they're doing to work, the player should come up with how the character would do his or her best to get something done. So, to pick a crude example, it isn't powergaming to use a longbow rather than to throw a spear at a target sixty feet away, its the character doing whats best. It ain't powergaming.

Believe it or not, there is a vocal set amongst the "true roleplayer" crownd who seem to believe they should be able to do deliberately inefficient or suboptimal things, and be rewarded for it, and that if a game or GM does not do so, or if the other players in the group do not follow their example, then they're "powergaming".

Some people are fucking stupid.

Weekly · October 05, 2007, 10:59:37 AM

Quote from: CabThere really isn't a difference. In either game the DM starts with a premis, the players find that and then the PCs do what the players choose. The distinction between interractive storeytelling and roleplaying is entirely artificial.

I'm not so sure. There's a difference between games where player imput is limited to the choice of their characters' actions, and their and their consequences on the game world, and games where players are provided the mechanical means of altering the plot or trhe world beyond what their characters can do. Granted, both are interactive storytelling games, but they're not the same, IMO.

Of course, the line is a bit arbitrary and can be easily blurred (by traditional games featuring plot-editing Hero points, for instance), but I think it exists. While Conan d20 is still a roleplaying game despite its destiny points, Dust Devils (while a great game) is something else.

Blackleaf · October 05, 2007, 11:00:14 AM

I think this is the distinction to focus on:

Traditional RPG: The GM narrates what's behind the door.

Storytelling Game: The player narrates what's behind the door.

Cab · October 05, 2007, 11:04:24 AM

Quote from: J ArcaneBelieve it or not, there is a vocal set amongst the "true roleplayer" crownd who seem to believe they should be able to do deliberately inefficient or suboptimal things, and be rewarded for it, and that if a game or GM does not do so, or if the other players in the group do not follow their example, then they're "powergaming".

Some people are fucking stupid.

Are you just in a mood or something?

Theres nothing wrong with doing the 'wrong' thing, tactically, if its in character. Why should there be? Just like theres nothing wrong with a character weighting up his chances and doing what he things is the surest thing. Neither is powergaming, both are valid roleplaying.