Quote from: TimI've made no claims that story games are the wave of the future of mainstream high(ha!) sales gaming. What I've been saying is that I believe we're going to see a hybridization of story games mechanics and traditional RPG mechanics in the coming years. I think this will be a very good thing for creation and retention of hardcore long-term gamers. All I have to go on here is personal experience and conjecture, but mine is as good as anyones. Maybe.

I don't have any beef with what you are saying.  Some good stuff has come out of the Story Games/Forge crowd.  A lot of it could be characterized as the rediscovery of stuff obscured in the shuffle of commercialized/tournamentified early 80's AD&D, but that doesn't make these discoveries any less valuable to the modern player.  But I think there's a lot of distance between your position and Mr. Dancey's.

Quote from: jrientsI don't have any beef with what you are saying.  Some good stuff has come out of the Story Games/Forge crowd.  A lot of it could be characterized as the rediscovery of stuff obscured in the shuffle of commercialized/tournamentified early 80's AD&D, but that doesn't make these discoveries any less valuable to the modern player.  But I think there's a lot of distance between your position and Mr. Dancey's.

Well, I don't like where Mr. Dancey came from -or- where he's going. I'm just making my own predictions.

As far as where ideas come from...I'm not sure that it really matters (and certainly doesn't matter to the end consumer). Influences and origins are only going to get more and more mixed up.

Quote from: jrientsSome good stuff has come out of the Story Games/Forge crowd.

I haven't seen anything good come out of that crowd, but I'm hoping for obits* some day.

Haven't read all of it so I'll allow that there might be one or two things, one can only dig through so much trash before you give up looking for gold.


*Note: Dark humor warning, not to be taken too seriously

Quote from: TimI've made no claims that story games are the wave of the future of mainstream high(ha!) sales gaming. What I've been saying is that I believe we're going to see a hybridization of story games mechanics and traditional RPG mechanics in the coming years. I think this will be a very good thing for creation and retention of hardcore long-term gamers. All I have to go on here is personal experience and conjecture, but mine is as good as anyones. Maybe.

I may have been confusing your position with Dancey's. My apologies if that is so.

As to the hybridization of styles, sure, as reasonable as anything. Most any system out there is derivative at this point. Parts are put together in different ways and as long as you are not doing something just to do something different, that element could be in the running. So, of those, we have a subset of elements that will gain sway and popularity for a while.

To be honest, I do not see anything all that shockingly new in games of today. Yeah, interesting but something does not need to be new to be interesting.  In the end, we will have games swing back and forth in the popularity of design and play style emphasis. We might be due for a swing towards story.

Quote from: TimAs far as the market....the market never created a single thing. People create and in a design community as inbred as that of the RPG industry I simply can't conceive that there won't be cross-pollination of ideas between the two 'sides.' Those ideas will get tried out. Whether that cross-pollination bears fruit or not...that's what the market will decide.

And I did not say that the market did. I said that the market will adjust and what a publisher produces will have little bearing on that. This, of course, depends on your definitions. Yes, publishers will need to produce material. They will try new things. Many of those things will fail. Those that survive and flourish will have mostly to do with marketing and some small amount to do with mechanics.

Bill

Dancey's lost his perspective.  He's now useless.  Goodbye, Ryan.

Quote from: J ArcaneJust a hunch, but it may have something to do with Luke Crane babbling on and on about how GMs are evil and about how GM authority is killing the hobby, and all that sort of nonsense.

Somebody here has a quote from, ironically enough, Luke Crane which goes to the effect that I don't care if the designer is a dick if the game is solid.

I don't personally think Luke is a dick, but even if he is it doesn't change the quality of the game on the page one whit.

Tim, I checked your location, too bad it's in the US as I would have loved to try out a game, BW killed me on the complexity but it always looked like a really great game to me.  For me it's a bit like Spycraft, I love the idea but I couldn't run it myself, I Just don't have the time to spend learning it properly.

Quote from: BalbinusTim, I checked your location, too bad it's in the US as I would have loved to try out a game, BW killed me on the complexity but it always looked like a really great game to me.  For me it's a bit like Spycraft, I love the idea but I couldn't run it myself, I Just don't have the time to spend learning it properly.

That is too bad. I would kill to run BW with another historically minded gamer in the group. Are you in the U.K.? I know there are a few players over there. It might be worth a shot to put up a posting on the BW Looking for a Game board (or whatever it's called).

Burning Wheel is a complex game, no doubt about it. It takes months of continuous play to learn, BUT it's been a blast to learn the game in that manner for me.

OK, I just can't resist...

Quote from: TimBurning Wheel is a complex game, no doubt about it. It takes months of continuous play to learn, BUT it's been a blast to learn the game in that manner for me.

I thought these games were supposed to be easier and more accessible to the average joe/new gamer.  Months of continuous play to learn?  I might as well just get D&D...

Quote from: BalbinusSomebody here has a quote from, ironically enough, Luke Crane which goes to the effect that I don't care if the designer is a dick if the game is solid.

I don't personally think Luke is a dick, but even if he is it doesn't change the quality of the game on the page one whit.

Tim, I checked your location, too bad it's in the US as I would have loved to try out a game, BW killed me on the complexity but it always looked like a really great game to me.  For me it's a bit like Spycraft, I love the idea but I couldn't run it myself, I Just don't have the time to spend learning it properly.

It's not that he's a dick (though I think he is anyway), it's that when someone is espousing such a philosophy and is a game designer, I can only assume such philosophy makes it into his games unless he's a damn hypocrite.  

And when that philosophy is diametrically opposed to mine, then I can tell pretty much without so much as a glance at the work that it's not going to be my thing.

Not to mention that I can't expect much quality from someone who's demonstrated such a total failure of critical thinkings skills as he did in the Q&A thread.

Quote from: James J SkachI thought these games were supposed to be easier and more accessible to the average joe/new gamer.  Months of continuous play to learn?  I might as well just get D&D...

Unless you think BW is a better game than D&D. :eek:

Seriously, though, BW is a different animal than the other story games in a lot of ways, though there's certainly a family resemblance. In my opinion it's every bit as robust as D&D or Runequest. Frankly, I love the fact that all those mechanics are there to be explored and learned: I like to geek out on stuff like that.

Quote from: TimUnless you think BW is a better game than D&D. :eek:

Hey man, to each his own, I say. If you like BW better than D&D, that's your disgrace...umm..I mean...business.

Quote from: TimSeriously, though, BW is a different animal than the other story games in a lot of ways, though there's certainly a family resemblance.

Well it must be to require months of continuous play.  Though I seem to be getting the same vibe from various snippets I've read about DitV - that it's got a lot of mechanical messing around that takes time to understand so you can strategize properly.

My point is, that seems to run counter to the claims that GNS/TBM is supposed to be all about. How can you be gaming a system that's supposed to be about creating story?  The Incoherence! Cats and Dogs, Sleeping together!

Quote from: James J SkachI thought these games were supposed to be easier and more accessible to the average joe/new gamer.  Months of continuous play to learn?  I might as well just get D&D...

The "months to learn" assertion is crazy moontalk - me and the two (completely different) groups of people I've played in BW oneshots with managed to get the grasp of it within minutes of starting play.

Quote from: WarthurThe "months to learn" assertion is crazy moontalk - me and the two (completely different) groups of people I've played in BW oneshots with managed to get the grasp of it within minutes of starting play.

Sure, I've run several successful one-shots, as well. I think there are a lot of aspects of the game that don't really emerge until you've spent some time with it,though. There's a difference between playing the game and 'system mastery.' Maybe I should have differentiated in my ramblings.

Or maybe you and yours are just a lot smarter than me and mine. It's entirely possible.

Tim

Tim:

As you your assertion that 'belief' mechanics may start ending up in mainsteam games...yadda yadda...five years...


Exalted's second edition already has a similar 'mechanic' in place. Why the scare quotes? For as much as I like the concept personally (and I am equally certain I've seen it going back quite some time in one form or another) I can not really justify the term 'mechanics' to what ammounts to

'Write it down on your character sheet. Poof, It's real, the GM can't say it ain't'


Sure, I suppose its nice to have the game book back your play when you argue your dread pirate would 'of course!' have a pistol up his rectum after you've been captured and tossed in a prison sans weapons...

... but there ain't nothing mechanical about it, and really not too much that is actually clever really.

Quote from: WarthurThe "months to learn" assertion is crazy moontalk - me and the two (completely different) groups of people I've played in BW oneshots with managed to get the grasp of it within minutes of starting play.

-Hmmm - I've listened to a large section of someones Burning Empires campaign (over podcast) and after ten hours they still don't really understand how the rules work - most of it is made up on the fly by the GM.

--

I'm wondering if there could be an only Nixon can go to  China thing going on.

We all know Ron Edwards is an asshole who hates gamers. And so are the story games fuckwits.

Possibly if we can stick them on poles and parade the bodies for all to see Ryan Dancey, trusted by the DnD playing mainstream, can become the saviour of the hobby.

Are the assholes on story games more a hinderance than a help at this point?