Quote from: pigames.netMy guess is that he's got a new project in the works, and simply trying to steer people to buy it when it's released.

I think this is a good guess.  Dancey's always been an opportunistic mofo.

Quote from: StuartSurprises aren't the same as secrets.  

It's easy to be surprised by something new (or arbitrary) another player makes up on the spot.  That's not the same as discovering or solving an existing puzzle / mystery / challenge.

You can still play things close to the vest in a story game. You can absolutely still have mystery and every story game I've played has been FULL of challenges. There's a lot of room for that stuff between "here's what this game is going to be about" and "here's what we did in this game."

As far as "Then you put the RED gem in the BLUE hole and the gate opens"....not so much. I don't have a problem with that particular issue, but maybe I'm being myopic and puzzles are the key to the next RPG boom.

QuoteReading to the end of a book to see how it *really* ends is different from one of your friends making up something on the spot.  (Harry Potter grows WINGS in the new book!?!!)

You must have loved Dragonlance. As far as Harry Potter grows wings, I suppose that sort of absurd goofiness is possible if you're playing with spoiler-type players. I don't game with people like that if I can help it.

QuoteThere can certainly be hybrids -- but to Ryan D's suggestion that MORE shared GMing leads to better games / more enjoyment / more players...  I disagree.

Just out of curiosity...is your opinion of the first two items coming from first-hand experience, or a bunch of stuff you read on the internet?

Tim

Quote from: TimJust out of curiosity...is your opinion of the first two items coming from first-hand experience, or a bunch of stuff you read on the internet?

Because we all know that in order to have an opinion, you have to have designed and played at least three games from each of the "categories."

IOW, you're guess isn't as good as Tim's, Luke's, etc. Your inability to read a game, understand it, and discard it is completely destroyed by the Evil Marketing Machine (tm) and the brain damage that has occurred because you've been trained (monkey) to play a certain way, lacking the ability to evolve into a more sophisticated storyteller.

Wait for it...here comes the "thanks for putting words in my mouth asshole."

To which I say, you, sir, are welcome.

QuoteJust out of curiosity...is your opinion of the first two items coming from first-hand experience, or a bunch of stuff you read on the internet?

I take it that you've actually played a Dragonlance module then?

Quote from: James J SkachWait for it...here comes the "thanks for putting words in my mouth asshole."

Actually how about this: "I would be satisfied if he's actually read any story-games. Asshole."

Quote from: StuartI take it that you've actually played a Dragonlance module then?

I GMd the first one back in the day, actually (and read the first trilogy!). I remember my players being pissed that they weren't supposed to make up their own characters, but there was probably an option to use their own that I didn't inform them of. I'm not proud.

Too much fun, had to comment somewhere and as I'm sure Pundit is horrified by this turn of events it may as well be here.

So, since Edwards got to Dancy and has turned him into a pod person, this is without doubt as clear a signal as possible that he has won the war. I'm sure the armistice will require Pundit to put down his rulebooks- so can I have them? Except for that silly FtA that is.  



More seriously...

Rather sad that Dancy went bat nuts fruit loopy, but wasn't this the guy doing all sorts of monkey business while at WotC anyway? Not a full deck there to begin with.

Further he seems desperate for something to do, more mountains to climb in his own words. He knows he can't out D&D D&D and so is reaching for something different to make his dash for new fame. Let him, and laugh when he burns or cry when he succeeds. The former is far more likely IMO.

It has certainly horrified me. Its like watching a boxer who once took the title belt reduced to fighting a staged match with a trained bear or something; his once powerful physique reduced to flabby muscles and slurred speech from one too many blows to the head.

The whole thing smacks of the desperation of the man who can't rest on his laurels, can't go peacefully into the quiet dignity of retirement, and in his desperation to still be heard about anything starts saying anything at all.  Dancey climbed some of the biggest mountains there were to climb in the RPG industry, and now he's starring in a circus and trying to claim its the same thing.

To me at least, who deeply admired the guy's vision, this is heartbreaking. I hope someone puts a bullet in my skull before I ever end up like that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: TimYou must have loved Dragonlance. As far as Harry Potter grows wings, I suppose that sort of absurd goofiness is possible if you're playing with spoiler-type players. I don't game with people like that if I can help it.
Tim

First, not addressed at you, I call Dancey Captain Obvious for a reason. Nothing he says is particularly insightful or new. He has just changed who he is repeating/rephrasing.

I have always had this issue with certain games, and it is not just "story" games. Simply, I am told by fans of a genre or game that you "Of Course" need a "certain kind of player". My response is usually, the GM or the rules should clarify play. If you need a certain "kind" of player to make a game "work" then something is wrong with that play style.

Now, if you have a certain playstyle that players enjoy, that is subtly different. This means that a the game has draw for people with certain play style requirements. Put it on the market, and if "most" players want to ply the game combined with proper business approach, then you will have the validation of the market.

So far, such games have not proven themselves in the market. People who believe WW is anything more than a traditional dice pool game, well, yeah, more power to ya.

So, I do not think the "future" of the market is story games any more than I believe the future of the market is traditional games. The market will adjust to the consumers and what publishers produce will have little bearing on it.

Bill

Quote from: RPGPunditThe whole thing smacks of the desperation of the man who can't rest on his laurels, can't go peacefully into the quiet dignity of retirement, and in his desperation to still be heard about anything starts saying anything at all.  Dancey climbed some of the biggest mountains there were to climb in the RPG industry, and now he's starring in a circus and trying to claim its the same thing.

That's my take on it as well, although I have no praises to sing to his past.

I do however think there will be a bright side to this no matter what happens. If he fails completely (likely), it's yet another datapoint that Story is a sideline to rpgs and not their true focus. If he succeeds, he will break his story games away from rpgs and maybe we'll at last be left alone by the fruitcakes.

Seems I'm an optimist after all.

Quote from: HinterWeltIf you need a certain "kind" of player to make a game "work" then something is wrong with that play style.

Now, if you have a certain playstyle that players enjoy, that is subtly different.

I don't see a difference, or rather I think it's one of your creation if it exists.

Quote from: HinterWeltSo far, such games have not proven themselves in the market. People who believe WW is anything more than a traditional dice pool game, well, yeah, more power to ya.

So, I do not think the "future" of the market is story games any more than I believe the future of the market is traditional games. The market will adjust to the consumers and what publishers produce will have little bearing on it.

I've made no claims that story games are the wave of the future of mainstream high(ha!) sales gaming. What I've been saying is that I believe we're going to see a hybridization of story games mechanics and traditional RPG mechanics in the coming years. I think this will be a very good thing for creation and retention of hardcore long-term gamers. All I have to go on here is personal experience and conjecture, but mine is as good as anyones. Maybe.

As far as the market....the market never created a single thing. People create and in a design community as inbred as that of the RPG industry I simply can't conceive that there won't be cross-pollination of ideas between the two 'sides.' Those ideas will get tried out. Whether that cross-pollination bears fruit or not...that's what the market will decide.

Quote from: TimWhat I've been saying is that I believe we're going to see a hybridization of story games mechanics and traditional RPG mechanics in the coming years. I think this will be a very good thing for creation and retention of hardcore long-term gamers.

Many of these games have interesting innovations apart from the GM-less / GNS-oriented / story-focused stuff.  This, I think, is the stuff that will have more long-lasting impact on other game designers.

Quote from: gleichmanI don't see a difference, or rather I think it's one of your creation if it exists.

I do see a difference, or rather I think the confusion of the two distinction is one of your own creation.



Bill

Quote from: StuartMany of these games have interesting innovations apart from the GM-less / GNS-oriented / story-focused stuff.  This, I think, is the stuff that will have more long-lasting impact on other game designers.

I think you're probably right, though I'll be surprised if you don't see a Belief like mechanic in a mainstream game in the next five years.

As far as I'm concerned:
a) I love having a GM. I also don't mind playing a game that's GM-less, but it will never serve as bread and butter for a group I'm involved in.

b) I don't care what theory drove a design. There are a lot of crappy story games and there are a lot of crappy traditional games. I care about how the thing plays.

c) I love for there to be definite concrete tools at the table that allow everyone to have a say in story creation...I want to be able to act as well as react in that respect.

Quote from: HinterWeltI do see a difference, or rather I think the confusion of the two distinction is one of your own creation.

Nope, I don't see confusion here or rather I think the confusion is one of your own creation.

We can do this forever

Hey, it beats playing Story Games.