Quote from: BradfordWhat WOW has is a game that's every bit the D&D experience that the majority of gamers, as show by their actions historically and at present, want from that game in a manner that's far more friendly to them and their circumstances.

What does WoW do for people who like to DM?

Quote from: jrientsWhat does WoW do for people who like to DM?

Fuck all.  You've got to go over to Ryzom and NWN for that.

And I thought Stormreach was the D&D attempt at Warcraft.

Looks like I was wrong. 4E is actually a stealthed MMO that comes in tabletop form...

*sigh*

How about new alien/fantasy species, odd ball things like amphibious intelligent squids and such.

What about using the rules for an entirely different genre?

What about mixing and matching rules from other games?

How about hosting your own world for just you and your friends?

How about not having invisible walls where there is stuff you can see but can't go to because it has not been developed yet, or never will be?

I think WOW is neat, maybe even great, but it isn't the same.

Better? Not to me.

Quote from: BradfordAnyone that claims that MMOs aren't social hasn't been in an active guild...

Overall, you make a strong argument, Brad.  However, VoIP through the game interface with other players is not really a great substitute for sitting with your friends in the same room over pizza, for me.  To me social means actually interacting with your friends on a social level, not just about "The Game", but about life, and OOC laughs, and just plain being able to see peoples faces and reactions to stuff as the game is being played.  To me it is part of what makes P&P RPGs an enjoyable experience.   Different strokes...

Does remind me of ... South Park Does WoW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLHreFYDQnQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAmZ93W2b7A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1ctWlFD-FQ
:haw:

Anyway, the P&P RPG is intrinsically more flexible than WoW.  While it's true that you have certain limitations imposed by RPG rules, those are often flexibly applied during a game, and can be adapted spontaneously during play when necessary.  You can't do this at all with WoW.  

Other than that your argument is fairly persuasive, but not entirely.  I think you're missing some essential differences between what P&P RPGs offer vs. MMORPGs in terms of quality of experience.  I'm not saying one is "better" than the other.  But I do think they are fundamentally different activities.   The Virtual Tabletop concept is a step in the direction of WoW, however it is taking a different space, which is not MMORPG though there are intersection points and overlapping attributes.  

What all this makes me wonder, though, is if there are any available Marketing Statistics that show whether or not Middle and High School age kids are picking up on P&P RPGs, or is the next generation of Players pretty much only focused on MMORPGs?   I think that would have a large bearing on the future prospects of P&P RPGs, practically speaking.   Unless there is a new generation of P&P RPG Players I find little reason to believe that the hobby will thrive indefinitely, unless they change substantially to attract the new generation of Players.   Virtual Tabletop RPGs reflect that change, I think, and may be key to bringing new players into RPGing.

Quote from: VBWyrdeOverall, you make a strong argument, Brad.  However, VoIP through the game interface with other players is not really a great substitute for sitting with your friends in the same room over pizza, for me.  To me social means actually interacting with your friends on a social level, not just about "The Game", but about life, and OOC laughs, and just plain being able to see peoples faces and reactions to stuff as the game is being played.  To me it is part of what makes P&P RPGs an enjoyable experience.   Different strokes...

Pretty much. I mean I have plenty of fun with WoW the one or two times a week my friend Josh and I play it together, but every Saturday we and our friends still get together and play whatever RPG is being run for 5 hours or so, and I'll tell you I'd easily trade the former for the latter, because I'd much rather make up new fun shit with my friends face to face than work the pretty fun but same old shit from WoW.  Kinda the same way a sit-down family meal is considered to have better bonding potential than microwave pot pies in front of the telly.

Like Kyle has been harping on lately, RPGs are a creative and social activity, and if you ask me, the internet is an inferior medium for both the creative and the social when you compare it to the Real Life model.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerAnyone that claims that MMOs aren't social hasn't been in an active guild.  I am; it's no less social that tabletop gaming, and it's better than tabletop gaming in that when folks are just yapping about nothing I can still play the damned game instead of wasting time doing shit-all nothing.  When we're playing, we're totally focused on the game; we blaze through dungeons, taking monsters down with a level of skill and precision that I've never experienced in tabletop gameplay.  My guild is a team, and we're there to play the fucking game; this is not what I've seen in 25+ years of tabletop gaming, which wastes far too much time on shit that can be done better just by having a dinner party or backyard barbeque or some other mainstream social event- or just talking on the phone.

And no, in practical terms the computer does just as well as the tabletop; the tabletop experience claims to be wholly open, but in practice there are a finite number of useful and practical options at every step of gameplay- console and PC games merely eliminate all options that aren't useful, practical, or are of the dickheaded derailing jackass type, keeping only those that actually are worth considering.  (Of course, fuckheaded designers can screw this up too; they're human like the rest of us.)  The ability to do or go as you please isn't that damned useful, especially in a group context where acting in such a way is likely to fuck over other people and ruin their fun.

But the big winner is logistical; it's far more convenient to play online when and how you like with other folks who really want to be there than it is to play only when everyone can get into the same place at the same time, and then only to stand a good chance of wasting some of that precious time on shit that isn't playing the game.

The figures are telling; according to SJG's Marketing dept., the entire tabletop gaming hobby takes in about $50M/yr. whereas WOW takes in $135M/mo. in subscription fees alone.  The officers and shareholders of Hasbro and WOTC are aware of this by now, and that is why I think D&D 4.0 will prove to be one that sees D&D become more like WOW as much as it possible.  What WOW has is a game that's every bit the D&D experience that the majority of gamers, as show by their actions historically and at present, want from that game in a manner that's far more friendly to them and their circumstances.  It is the challenge of the day for D&D to answer that challenge, beat it, and yet remain what it is at its core.  Due to the people running the show at WOTC & Hasbro, I doubt that this will happen.

Brilliant post - even though I'm not familiar with WoW.  Why?  Because it's the first one I've seen argue this position and it's nice to see that perhaps the granted wisdom that WoW can't compete on the social level may not be so air tight.  Perhaps, like TT, it's a matter of with whom you play.

So here's my prediction.  Ready?  Drum Rolls? Bookmarks?

D&D 4.0 is a holding ground.  It's gauze on the wound that WoW put to D&D.  It's stopping the bleeding. And it's stalling for time until they can build a product that is better than WoW. They won't care if all of the grognard die in a huge explosion of mind power at the sheer incensed anger at D&D going on-line in 5th Edition - they'll have this kick-ass application where you can have a live DM if you choose, or play in a WoW-like system.  You'll have servers with people's homebrew campaigns next to servers running whatever WotC Living campaign that exists next to servers running WoW-like D&D run by a computer. the non-WoW-like games will be run by software you can buy (as the DM) and put on a WotC shared server - like this forum - and accesses (as a player) via custom front end, with all of the rules embedded and ready for XML (or whatever technology is used in 10 years) updates on demand, both of which will sell as a monthly subscription cost - probably in the $20-$30 range (which will include all of the Dungeon and Dragon content, fourms, tools, etc.). It will all be ready in 5-8 years - and 4.0 is just a holding ground to stop as much loss as possible and prepare the way.

phew...it take alot out of me to predict the future like that...I have to go get some rest while I work...

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerAnyone that claims that MMOs aren't social hasn't been in an active guild.

I have, a number of times. And yes they are social, but not in the same way and frankly, they are basically as loopy as any semi-random Internet grouping (say RPGNet or the Forge or... this place).

If anyone wishes to express the idea that they have a better or equal social enviroment online with MMORPGs as they do in their home with real life friends- I must express my wishes for improvement in their life. They seriously need new friends (who game of course).

Brian,

I know several people who use their WoW-experience as a means o finding real friends and spouses. I cannot see why this would be a form of inferiour socializing. I mean, how human-social centered can it get?
It depends on the guilds and the server, I´m sure. I played for four hours and thought it sucked as a game.
I firmly believe, though, that the social aspect is paramount in WoW.

We can raise our arrogant eyebrows to this (hah! they don´t have a life! look at these nerds, socializing over the internet!), but really, hooking up with lovers and friends over beer or at work isn´t that different, no?

Personally, I feel like I'm in no position to judge the customs and mating habits of this weird new generation of online gamers.  Our kind looks no less alien to the wargamers that beget us, after all.  I just know that, kindred spirits though they be, their scene ain't my scene.  It's that simple.  Every step D&D takes towards the new futuristic world of MMORLMNOPs takes it one step away from what I want out of the game.

Quote from: SettembriniI know several people who use their WoW-experience as a means o finding real friends and spouses.

I don't have a objection as such to meeting people online, and then meeting them in real life to form friendships or more.

But to skip meeting them offline at all? And to put them above all the people that you have met face-to-face? No, that's a sad life in motion.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerAnd no, in practical terms the computer does just as well as the tabletop; the tabletop experience claims to be wholly open, but in practice there are a finite number of useful and practical options at every step of gameplay- console and PC games merely eliminate all options that aren't useful, practical, or are of the dickheaded derailing jackass type, keeping only those that actually are worth considering.  (Of course, fuckheaded designers can screw this up too; they're human like the rest of us.)  The ability to do or go as you please isn't that damned useful, especially in a group context where acting in such a way is likely to fuck over other people and ruin their fun.

This is a reasonably compelling argument, but I think it is wrong. I agree, that in many instances, on a campaign scale, the PC game is probably just as "open" as a tabletop game. After all, are you really able to "go anywhere" and "do anything" in your average tabletop game, or are you going to participate in the adventure your GM has worked on all week? And yet, for all of their sophistication, PC games just don't match the experience of tabletop games. Why is that?

PC games are limited by the minds of the designers at the time they are written. There is absolutely no freedom of player action besides that which is encoded into the engine. Even limiting ourselves to discussion combat options, PC games are found to be lacking. Can I overturn tables to provide cover from gunfire? Can I "strike to subdue"? Can I throw dirt in my opponent's face? Can I shoot the steam pipes directly behind the enemy's head? Can I use my phasing power to walk through a wall to escape combat?

Tabletop wins out at the encounter scale too. I once set up a small dungeon area where the PCs needed to get an object from a group of skeletons and their "king". I figured the place had once been an area where people prepared bodies for burial and thus there were vats of preservatives and other equipment. The king and his cohort were in another area and could not reach the morgue. When the PCs arrived at the big combat encounter, the skeletons quickly surrounded them and I had the king expound on how they were trespassing in the land of the dead and how he was going to eat their souls or some such nonsense. While doing so, I added some random color and described how the king was decaying and pieces of old flesh and bone were falling off of him.

So, instead of the PCs fighting, they offered to trade the morgue equipment and preservatives for their freedom and the widget. I was surprised and amused by this turn of events, and it made perfect sense, so it worked. A PC game could do this, but only if it were intended at design time. Computers don't deal well with surprises, even cool ones.

As for the campaign scale, as I said, I largely agree with you. Still, I have never, ever started a game session by telling my PCs, "You have been hired by the wizard Mongo and he has charged you with the important task of gathering 6 gray wolf hides..."

(edited because of accidental post)

Quote from: cmagounThis is a reasonably compelling argument, but I think it is wrong. I agree, that in many instances, on a campaign scale, the PC game is probably just as "open" as a tabletop game. After all, are you really able to "go anywhere" and "do anything" in your average tabletop game, or are you going to participate in the adventure your GM has worked on all week?

I have no idea how it works in your group, but in mine it's often a matter of the players stating where they are going next week- and then the GM works out of the detail of what's to found there. Sometimes the turn around time is far less than a week.

Try doing that in a MMORPG.

And try doing something that no one on the sever can ever do.

Quote from: cmagounThis is a reasonably compelling argument, but I think it is wrong. I agree, that in many instances, on a campaign scale, the PC game is probably just as "open" as a tabletop game. After all, are you really able to "go anywhere" and "do anything" in your average tabletop game, or are you going to participate in the adventure your GM has worked on all week?

That, I'd say, even depends on the GM and how prepared they are.  I know of some GMs where they spend a week on an adventure that's where you go.  I know others (myself included) who create a World of potential adventures and they know at least something about every direction you could head as a group or individual PC.  And they are able to spontaneously fill in the blanks as they go when necessary.  And usually the adventures relate directly to the PC group in some way (their history, or motives, or stray comments, funny asides, etc).   The difference being that in WoW it is not spontaneous, nor is it flexible, nor do you get that direct Player-GM-Story effect.  In P&P RPGs you could argue that the GM may not be flexible or spontaneous, in which case that particular GM is GMing his or her world more like a MMORPG, but the point is that in P&P you do have that capability.  In WoW you really don't.   Not yet anyway.  Maybe in the future, possibly.

Quote from: SettembriniBrian,

I know several people who use their WoW-experience as a means o finding real friends and spouses.

It seems to me there are two major differences between that and social networks and dating websites.

1. Friends: On WoW you meet people who by definition would rather socialize online than in RL. It's not a site to find social activities. It IS a social activity. Of sorts. This is also what distinguishes it from RPGs.

2. ChiXXors: What's the M/F ratio on WoW? 10 to 1? 50 to 1?