Quote from: jrientsExcuse me for a moment, I'll just be over in the corner, dying inside.

I LOVE Star Wars. But definitely not for the story.
I get strong emotions when watching Star Wars.
But not from the story.

The grand universe, the escapism, the special effects that are invisible, the characters, the real look and feel of it all...etc. ad nauseam.

Star Wars has so many, many things going for it. But the story isn´t one. All the cringeworthy SW moments are exposition moments.

Star Wars in it´s original form is a major cultural achievement, because it used techniques in filmmaking that lets us overlook the utterly ridicolous story and totally cliched introspective moments.

You were there, when you watched these movies. You were in that Galaxy far, far away. That´s the magic. Not Luke´s heritage. If anything, the whole Campbellian shit is working against Star Wars.

In short: Star Wars is cool, it´s emotion. Emotion through props, sets, costumes, music etc.

If it looses the cool, and the Campbellian story remains, you get the prequels.

Fuck the story.
Star Wars is a true Space OPERA.

And like in an opera, you don´t need to know fuck about the story to be taken away by it´s upsurge of emotions. Short of the voice of James Earl Jones, which is actually a prop or special effect upon it´s own, you don´t even need to understand what the characters are saying.

Great post, VBWyrde.

However...

Quote from: VBWyrdeFor me, the Traditionalist Pros outweigh its Cons only when the GM is a worthy World Weaver.   But these, as has been pointed out, are rare.  

Rarer than getting four of five people together who are all creative, imaginative, and cooperative enough to generate a enjoyable shared narrative?

Quote from: HaffrungGreat post, VBWyrde.

However...

Rarer than getting four of five people together who are all creative, imaginative, and cooperative enough to generate a enjoyable shared narrative?

Thanks Haffrung.  Well, I'd estimate it would be four or five times as rare, roughly speaking. The issues here is that Great Story must come from within the person.  The number of people who truly have Great Story is relatively small.   Thus, the odds of getting Great Story from a group is less than, not greater than, from an Individual.  That said, I still maintain that 1) those cases of Great Story individuals is comparatively rare.   2) It is not an impossible goal, but lacking an intuitive grasp of the topic (which is obviously preferred), it just requires a focus on studying What makes Great Story, and reading a lot of Great Stories until the GM gets the hang of it.  There are also matters of GMing technique (how to create dynamic dramatic tension in-game, etc) which is part of the picture, but not the entire picture.   Like I said, it's not that it's easy... but I think it is worthwhile - when done well.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Quote from: VBWyrdeThe Traditionalist style of GM Story Ownership is simply a different game.

Sorry to rain on the parade, but this line renders the remainder of your post moot.

If this is your view of the "Traditionalist Style," then we have a fundamental difference that can't be bridged.

Especially, since it´s wrong.

Quote from: James J SkachSorry to rain on the parade,

"Rein," James.

REIN

"Rein in the parade."

"Parade" not as in fucking Macy's.

"Parade" as in Spanish Riding School.

Dressage, James. Dressage.

Quote from: Pierce Inverarity"Rein," James.

REIN

"Rein in the parade."

"Parade" not as in fucking Macy's.

"Parade" as in Spanish Riding School.

Dressage, James. Dressage.

Slow your roll there pilgrim! Popular usage may not be everyones favorite, but it happens. I mean the only time "gay" means happy or festive anymore is in the Chrismas carol Deck the Halls

Thought that is a neat little tidbit I'm sure I'll remember instead of something useful.

"Rein," James.

Mark REIN·Hagen

:haw:

:haw:

Quote from: Pierce Inverarity"Rein," James.

REIN

"Rein in the parade."

"Parade" not as in fucking Macy's.

"Parade" as in Spanish Riding School.

Dressage, James. Dressage.

Thanks for pissing in my cheerios, bro.

Interesting...I was unaware that it was a reference to reining something in..thanks for the information!

But my point remains...

Or is it remeins...

I think your legge are being pooled. (From the Old English practical joke of throwing a person's "legge", or breeches, into a lake.)

Quote from: SettembriniEspecially, since it´s wrong.

More like confused.

a) Because it mixes up "story ownership" with "backstory ownership".
b) Because it mixes up two different "Traditionals". One where the GM owns the backstory, but not the story (situational GMing, e.g. the Braunsteinian factional setup, or the slightly later location crawl), and one where the GM owns both the backstory and the story ("storytelling GMing" of the Dragonlance variety).

Further confusing matters is that some Forgist Nar games (e.g. Sorcerer) arguably give shared backstory ownership in the setup without necessarily giving full-on shared rights to improvise additional backstory during play. But that tends to be overlooked, especially as the pure impro types took the ball of "player empowerment" and ran with it right out of RPG-land and straight into collaborative storytelling land--where Dancey's now planting his flag.

Quote from: SettembriniI checked out the mirror-thread to this one on Storygames. Seems even those who have "story" in their name are baffled/offended by Dancey´s muddled salad of buzzwords.

The discussions there on this and on 4e generally are both good IMO, not at all what I had expected.

For those who don't like SG, they are buzzed about 4e and quizzical about Dancey.

For those who are, they're good threads even if you're not into the games those guys are (which generally now I'm not so much).

Quote from: SettembriniI LOVE Star Wars. But definitely not for the story.
I get strong emotions when watching Star Wars.
But not from the story.

The grand universe, the escapism, the special effects that are invisible, the characters, the real look and feel of it all...etc. ad nauseam.

Star Wars has so many, many things going for it. But the story isn´t one. All the cringeworthy SW moments are exposition moments.

Star Wars in it´s original form is a major cultural achievement, because it used techniques in filmmaking that lets us overlook the utterly ridicolous story and totally cliched introspective moments.

You were there, when you watched these movies. You were in that Galaxy far, far away. That´s the magic. Not Luke´s heritage. If anything, the whole Campbellian shit is working against Star Wars.

In short: Star Wars is cool, it´s emotion. Emotion through props, sets, costumes, music etc.

If it looses the cool, and the Campbellian story remains, you get the prequels.

Fuck the story.
Star Wars is a true Space OPERA.

And like in an opera, you don´t need to know fuck about the story to be taken away by it´s upsurge of emotions. Short of the voice of James Earl Jones, which is actually a prop or special effect upon it´s own, you don´t even need to understand what the characters are saying.

Perfect post, Sett! Perfect!

-clash