I've been out of town and mostly away from computers this weekend, but wanted to thank Balbinus and Pseudoephedrine for coming to my defense and calming the rabid rat terrier. They're also to be commended for their perception and firm grasps on reality.

Oh, and holy crap! 4th Edition!

Ryan's final thoughts

Quote from: Ryan DanceyI'd like to particularly thank the community of designers in the "indie RPG movement", who have taken the lead on exploring issues of design outside the envelope of tradition (and often the economic envelope as well), and for reporting back on their successes and failures. Ron Edwards, in particular, is owed a deep debt of gratitude for creating a nascent community of freethinkers to push & prod the industry in the right direction. I thank also Luke Crane, whom I consider the last in a long line of self-published RPG visionaries

Yup.  He drank the koolaid alright.

Quote from: NicephorusNot only that but if you're really into tactics and character builds, nothing beats live play.  Computer games tend to have fairly rote tactics that don't change much within a battle or quickly from one battle to the next.  Live play also makes it possible to play with the rules and see how things play.

I would agree here, MMORPGs and other computer games in fact go to great lengths to hide their mechanics from the players. And once one 'reverse engineers' them, the result is typically very simple.

Their major advantage is that one can just log on and level (by a number of different yardsticks in most games). Advancement and success is certain (just keep at it) and it touches enough on tactics to be fun. No worries about running the rules, no need to get your gaming group together (I think this is the most important draw), no book work or game prep.

Somehow I don't see that as drawing off power-gamers (as WotC defined the term). Instead I see it as drawing off light or casual rpg'er of any style.


Dancy so far hasn't answered my question about his data for the stated loss of Power-Gamers.

Hah! That's an amazing amount of short-sightedness on Ryan Dancey's part then. Those guys aren't "freethinkers" by a long shot; they're groupthinkers. They're consensus-seekers. And theyre totally insignificant in the grand scheme which was really obvious this year. I also suspect this was the very last year for many of them. And next year there will be even fewer. 80% of all gaming books that come out these days are independently published just because of the technology.

Leveraging web technology was one thing the forgies got right and did first (or second, if you tie back distribution to the PDF-ification of the pre D&D3.0 material that was undertaken by some former WOTC staff members shortly after the release of D&D3.0 in 2000).

But anyone can do this technology thing. The tagline over at RPGNOW reads "The Leading Source for Indie RPGs". They aren't talking about Sorcerer. Look at the front page!

And the tragedy of it all, is that they did it to themselves because the forgies are not people who love gaming so much as they are political extremists who want to "spread a message". Thats what did them in.

They're done. And they know it.

Quote from: J ArcaneYup.  He drank the koolaid alright.

The whole barrel of it in a single glup.

Poor RPGPundit, this must be a like a stake driven through the heart for him. He declares war on the Swine only to have Dancey jump ship and become a card carrying member of them.

Maybe he should switch tactics and team up with Edwards. That could inspire Ron to come to old school game declaring GNS as an outdated concept...


Or RPGPundit could just learn that depending upon the visions of others is a one-way ticket to disappointing visions.

Quote from: gleichmanI would agree here, MMORPGs and other computer games in fact go to great lengths to hide their mechanics from the players. And once one 'reverse engineers' them, the result is typically very simple.

I give MMOs a little more credit in that character build strategies can be pretty deep with people discussing and arguing them endlessly. That's one of the cool things about them. However, what MMOs get right on character build complexity, they lose on the sheer mind-numbing tactics of aggro management.

Quote from: cmagounI give MMOs a little more credit in that character build strategies can be pretty deep with people discussing and arguing them endlessly. That's one of the cool things about them. However, what MMOs get right on character build complexity, they lose on the sheer mind-numbing tactics of aggro management.

One of the biggest innovations in World of Warcraft is the decision to make the lion's share of the game mechanics pretty transparent.

The computer does all the calculations, sure, but consideration of statistics and gear and talent builds is as big a thing in that game as it is in any tabletop game.

Quote from: cmagounI give MMOs a little more credit in that character build strategies can be pretty deep with people discussing and arguing them endlessly. That's one of the cool things about them. However, what MMOs get right on character build complexity, they lose on the sheer mind-numbing tactics of aggro management.

I'm not so sure they are deep or interesting, it's just that they're generally hidden so that what we see is effectively people arguing about color in a lightless room.

I'm currently playing LotRO for example, and I have no idea what the most effective tactics are because I have no idea what the system is. I've found something that works fine as far as leveling and advancing goes- and thus I'm not unhappy.

Does pale in relation to the table top game, where I know not only the result- but the reasons for it.

Quote from: J ArcaneOne of the biggest innovations in World of Warcraft is the decision to make the lion's share of the game mechanics pretty transparent.

The computer does all the calculations, sure, but consideration of statistics and gear and talent builds is as big a thing in that game as it is in any tabletop game.

I have no experience with WoW, so can't really comment on it specifically. Are they as open as to their mob stats and their resolutions system?


It should be noted that character builds aren't part of Dancey's Power-Gamer which is pure tacticals. Builds would be part of his "Thinkers".

Quote from: J ArcaneOne of the biggest innovations in World of Warcraft is the decision to make the lion's share of the game mechanics pretty transparent.

The computer does all the calculations, sure, but consideration of statistics and gear and talent builds is as big a thing in that game as it is in any tabletop game.

And if you thought Rolemaster was complication personifided, the common MMORPG beats it hands-down.  The WOW formula for determining my Warrior's Damage Per Second with her primary weapon looks something like this: DPS=3+(1.05(average weapon damage(weapon skill+talent modifiers-debuffs(base coefficient*Attack Power*weapon speed)))

There's a similar formula for determining that character's Threat Per Second, which is used to track the Threat Table that determines which PC gets attacked by the NPC.  (i.e. "draws aggro")  There's another for determining the amount of physical damage mitigation that my character's armor provides, another for determining how much Rage (what WOW Warriors use to power their special abilities) my character gains when she does damage, and when she takes damage.

In some post or another at the WOW Forums, all of these formulae are laid bare for those that care to see them.  Many of them are changed when the developers decide to buff or nerf something--there's a change to forumlae for things specific to WOW Rogues and Mages going live this week--and sites that data-mine and archive in Wiki or searchable database format also list the things.  WOW jargon for talk about this stuff is "theorycraft", and for those big into PVP and raiding this is the heart of making your character the most effective at either (or, if you're willing, both) pursuits; this, in turn, drives the game's culture and dominates the end-game (which drives all before it in turn).

D&D has this in spades, and it too dominates and drives the game from 1st level onward.  All commercially successful tabletop RPGs are so dominated, and the best of them use it to their advantage.  There's a reason for it, and it's the white elephant in the middle of the room: this is why the majority of gamers are there at all, because this is where the game in RPGs is centered and to master this is to make everything you want to do possible because you know what of the game to change to make it work.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerD&D has this in spades, and it too dominates and drives the game from 1st level onward.  All commercially successful tabletop RPGs are so dominated, and the best of them use it to their advantage.  There's a reason for it, and it's the white elephant in the middle of the room: this is why the majority of gamers are there at all, because this is where the game in RPGs is centered and to master this is to make everything you want to do possible because you know what of the game to change to make it work.

Bradford, brilliant post.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerAnd if you thought Rolemaster was complication personifided, the common MMORPG beats it hands-down.  The WOW formula for determining my Warrior's Damage Per Second with her primary weapon looks something like this: DPS=3+(1.05(average weapon damage(weapon skill+talent modifiers-debuffs(base coefficient*Attack Power*weapon speed)))

That looks very simple to me. Both in Math and in concept. Par for the course IME with MMORPGs.

To be honest, I think RD has failed to identify the draw of MMORPGs. It's not drawing tactical players (which is what he considers Power-Gamers), it's drawing those who enjoy kill & loot, and those who wish to by pass prep time (or can't always get a group together) and are willing to accept a lower quality rpg as a result.

Quote from: J ArcaneOne of the biggest innovations in World of Warcraft is the decision to make the lion's share of the game mechanics pretty transparent.

The computer does all the calculations, sure, but consideration of statistics and gear and talent builds is as big a thing in that game as it is in any tabletop game.

 Really?

 Yeah - but that computer can't pass me that bowl of pretzels on the table, make a bad pun to lighten the mood of the group, or give me  a back rub for a few minutes while the group takes a break for a few minutes.


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarReally?

 Yeah - but that computer can't pass me that bowl of pretzels on the table, make a bad pun to lighten the mood of the group, or give me  a back rub for a few minutes while the group takes a break for a few minutes.


- Ed C.

You want to get one of those new fangled pretzel passing, pun making, back rubbing computers then! They're all the rage round here.