Today's blog post was interesting. This is likely the driving idea behind a lot of RD's spewing:

Quote from: DanceyI believe that the Power Gamer faction of the player demographic is going to shift their play primarily to MMORPGs over time, which will change the overall audience of tabletop gaming.

If one believes that, the rest IMO logically follows (except perhaps for that hyrid computer concept, that seems to be a different subject completely to me and one that plays to the MMORPG advantage at that).

Quote from: gleichmanToday's blog post was interesting. This is likely the driving idea behind a lot of RD's spewing:



If one believes that, the rest IMO logically follows (except perhaps for that hyrid computer concept, that seems to be a different subject completely to me and one that plays to the MMORPG advantage at that).

Good to see you back for a bit...

I'd be interested as to why you think a hybrid plays to the MMORPG advantage - or at least get a better understanding of what you mean by that.

Today's Blog Post really puts Ryan's cards on the table.

highlights:

Quote from: Ryan DanceyI see many analogies between the China Clippers and the D20 System, especially as expressed in Dungeons & Dragons.  While the game represented one of the best implementations of the state of the art for game rules of its type, evolution on the technological platform have made it fundamentally obsolete.  

...

The GM "solution" most commonly employed is not very satisfying and doesn't lend itself to a strong and interesting storytelling experience.  Readers interested in some mechanical methods for addressing this kind of problem should take a look at Luke Crane's Burning Wheel for some inspiration. (Actually, you should just get it, period, and as many other Crane works as you can.  To really understand where the state of the art is in RPGs right now, Crane is required reading...)

...

In the most popular mode of play, a GM describes a 10x10 room, saying "in one corner there's an Orc, and in the other corner there's a pie".  As far as the players are concerned, the room has an Orc and a pie in it, and nothing else.  In fact, using the mechanics of the game, there is nothing else, unless the GM, by fiat adds it.

...


Further reading:
 
//www.story-games.com
//www.indie-rpgs.com

:forge:

Quote from: James J SkachI'd be interested as to why you think a hybrid plays to the MMORPG advantage - or at least get a better understanding of what you mean by that.

I consider the idea at it's core to be similar to attempting to sell people on rapid transit trains in place of cars- by sending a Limo to pick them up and drop them off at the most convenient connections.

Dancey likes to think that MMORPGs can't do what a 'story-game' does, indeed his entire concept is built on that. But his description of the hybrid result is almost exactly the description (more persistence, etc.) of what many in the industry consider to be the ideal MMORPG, i.e. the goal towards which the industry would like to move. You can't have the same ulimate goal and not face the same barriers in reaching it.

Heck, Dancy even had to exclude one MMORPG (Second Life) in his example because it's already part way there in a number of cases.

Under those conditions, who would you bet on for reaching that goal first? I'd bet on the guys who's been down in the dirt of running Massive player systems for years now, and who have the deep pockets something like WoW provides.


In addition to all that, he's going to be putting players in front of the computer in order to play his 'story-game', and that's putting one leg in where it can more easily be grabbed by an MMORPG. All the player needs to jump ship is one decision by the 'story game' company they don't like, or one improvement in the MMORPG world that catches their eye, etc.  That's a dangerous place IMO to put the future of your hobby.

Quote from: StuartToday's Blog Post really puts Ryan's cards on the table.

He should have started with today's post. But he needs to cite the data driving him (i.e. power-gamers leaving for MMORPGs)

I wonder if he has any or not? Or has he bought into the Forge mindset that just assumes it as true because they don't generally encounter that type of player online?

Quote from: gleichmanI consider the idea at it's core to be similar to attempting to sell people on rapid transit trains in place of cars- by sending a Limo to pick them up and drop them off at the most convenient connections.

Yeah, I don't know his idea of hybridization.

For me, it's different. Internet tools are great for helping prep time or something.  In my head, hybridization is not moving towards MMORPG's, it's using the computer in the places where it is strong, such as crunching numbers, etc. while leaving the players free to play in the traditional manner - in a way like a smart character sheet (with a PHB underneath) hooked to a smart setting (with the DMG and other setting stuff) underneath.  It's all there just to facilitate the experience, not fundamentally change it to a computer game.

I see it more like any other place where computers' strength are brought to bear on a target - like using them to compile the images in a CAT scan.

Quote from: James J SkachInternet tools are great for helping prep time or something.  In my head, hybridization is not moving towards MMORPG's, it's using the computer in the places where it is strong, such as crunching numbers, etc. while leaving the players free to play in the traditional manner - in a way like a smart character sheet (with a PHB underneath) hooked to a smart setting (with the DMG and other setting stuff) underneath.  It's all there just to facilitate the experience, not fundamentally change it to a computer game.

That's effectively the virtual gaming table that he rejected in one of the first articles.

Dancey seems to want to go beyond this into a shared online world. And that's when things get difficult.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI mean, never forget that he's the guy who thinks that roleplaying is twenty minutes of fun packed into four hours.

It's funny Kyle, when I read this it occurred to me: All this talk about changing the hobby seems premature when you have obviously never played in a fun campaign.

Quote from: cmagounIt's funny Kyle, when I read this it occurred to me: All this talk about changing the hobby seems premature when you have obviously never played in a fun campaign.

Exactly. That's Ron Edwards' problem, too. "Many gamers are not having any fun." But many are...

Okay, if you aren't having fun, then we should talk about that. But your experience is not universal. And to figure out how to have fun, don't just talk to the miserable people, but to the happy ones, too. If I want to fix my troubled marriage, do I only talk to divorced people? If I want job-hunting tips, should I only talk to the unemployed? Part of learning to be a mechanic is studying how machines work well, not just how they fuck up.

That really is all that's worth mockery, here. Okay, this "story-game" thing is pretty silly overall, but really so what? Whatever makes them happy. The bit that deserves mockery is this silly idea that really everyone wants this profound story experience, they just don't know it because they've been distracted by all that rolling dice, eating cheetos and having fun.

I mean, come on.

Quote from: cmagounIt's funny Kyle, when I read this it occurred to me: All this talk about changing the hobby seems premature when you have obviously never played in a fun campaign.

Not if he's right about the power-gamers leaving, that changes things greatly.

Quote from: gleichmanNot if he's right about the power-gamers leaving, that changes things greatly.

Yes, but haven't we heard this tune before, just with different lyrics? It sounds like an over generalization based on an assumption about certain peoples' playstyles. "Of course if you are interested in builds and tactics and minmaxing, you can't possibly want a living world and good story!! Why don't you just play a computer game, you... you... you gamist!!"

Brian, you are a tactician, so by the "storygamer" prognostication, you should be happy to play D&D since it is the game that best meets that particular style of game... any other fantasy game you could play (or make) is a waste of time. Similarly, by Ryan's prediction, you should be leaving the hobby to spend South Korean style hours on WoW.

Heck, by that measure, I shouldn't even have a gaming group anymore... In fact, I and several of my players often do play MMOs, but we keep coming back to tabletop games (in fact, I recently canceled all of my MMO subs) because they offer a richer experience. MMOs aren't even close. They have a lot going for them, for sure. Namely, a lower bar of entry, less logistics required to play, the intoxicating anonymity of the internet, but they still don't hold a candle to sitting in a room with your friends and playing in a good, solid roleplaying game that has cool characters, plots and combats.

I could be wrong, of course...
(Edited to add a point)

White Wolf though they could get the powergamers to go away.  Instead they had to design a whole new game for them to try and distract them from playing in their precious WoD.

Quote from: cmagounYes, but haven't we heard this tune before, just with different lyrics?

True enough, and it has been little more than hot air in the past. If Dancey has reason to believe that's changed, he has reason for taking a double of the Forge Kool-Aid because it at least offers an way to continue something related to rpgs.

IMO I seriously doubt that he does, but I hold open the question for now. Perhaps he'll answer my question about at his blog. Most likely he'll ignore it or respond with something fuzzy that we can't verify one way or the other.

Quote from: cmagoun"Of course if you are interested in builds and tactics and minmaxing, you can't possibly want a living world and good story!! Why don't you just play a computer game, you... you... you gamist!!"

Not only that but if you're really into tactics and character builds, nothing beats live play.  Computer games tend to have fairly rote tactics that don't change much within a battle or quickly from one battle to the next.  Live play also makes it possible to play with the rules and see how things play.

I checked out the mirror-thread to this one on Storygames. Seems even those who have "story" in their name are baffled/offended by Dancey´s muddled salad of buzzwords.