Ryan Dancey on "saving the hobby"

RPGPundit · August 14, 2007, 02:03:07 PM

Here are some pre-gencon posts of Ryans, on the "future of RPGs":

Climb the Highest Mountain

Keep Hope Alive

Step 1: Redefine the Hobby

In short, for those of you who don't want to read the whole thing, just read the third one. Ryan is saying our future is to be "storytelling games".

Here is my response on my blog:

Ryan Dancey Jumps the Shark
Or Ryan Has Broken My Little Heart

You can guess by the title what my feelings about Ryan's latest comments are.

RPGPundit

Pierce Inverarity · August 14, 2007, 02:08:19 PM

1. Dancey is teh swine! W00t ROFL

2. Mike Mearls thinks like me!

QuoteMike Mearls
"The goal of most of the people in the hobby is not "play a role". The goal of the hobby community is "tell a great story". "

I think this is a horribly, horribly flawed view of why people play games like D&D. It's akin to saying that people play football to tell great stories. Great stories may arise as a consequence of play, but they aren't the reason why people play in the first place.

It's a simple observational bias. The game sessions we hear about are the ones that make good stories, because we are naturally wired to communicate stories to each other. Yet, that doesn't mean that all worthwhile, intersting game play experiences are stories.

Frankly, I think game creators across all media continue to conflate good story with good game simply because we have yet to evolve an understanding of games that isn't rooted in an understanding of story due to the observational bias present in discussing game experiences.

Bull's eye!

Koltar · August 14, 2007, 02:14:58 PM

What the Feklahr??

- Ed C.

Nicephorus · August 14, 2007, 02:26:29 PM

"I was responsible for the birth of the 3rd Edition of Dungeons & Dragons, and the Open Gaming License and the D20 System Trademark License. "

Isn't that like Gore inventing the internet?

Balbinus · August 14, 2007, 02:29:50 PM

I see, so we save the hobby by creating another vaguely similar hobby in its place and all get into that instead?

Similarly I suppose if one were a wargamer and worried about that, one could save wargaming by having each wargamer just play one unit except for a single wargamer who would play all other units, what objection could anyone have for that?

One does not save a hobby by throwing out those elements of it that make people pursue it in the first place. If the fate of a hobby is to become smaller so be it, wargaming got smaller but there's plenty of folk still enjoying it today.

Balbinus · August 14, 2007, 02:31:40 PM

Also, the point of roleplaying is not to tell a good story. That's a point for some people, but it is not the point.

There is no the point.

For me, the point is to experience other lives and to hang out having fun with friends, others have other points, sometimes in the same group, but there is no single point.

For me creating story is a byproduct of play, and great play does not necessarily lead to great stories or indeed much of any story at all.

As so often, Mike Mearls is right on the money.

Nicephorus · August 14, 2007, 02:32:32 PM

Quote from: BalbinusAs so often, Mike Mearls is right on the money.

QFT

Aos · August 14, 2007, 02:36:44 PM

If we're going to save the hobby I think the first thing we need to do is safeguard the world's dorrito, funion, and cheeto supplies.

jgants · August 14, 2007, 02:38:00 PM

Quote from: BalbinusI see, so we save the hobby by creating another vaguely similar hobby in its place and all get into that instead?

If I'm going to bother to get into another hobby, it's sure not going to be "storytelling".

I can't think of anything less lame than sitting around with a bunch of geeks and trying to cobble a coherent story together like some kind of fanfic designed by committee.

I'll stick with RPGs, thanks.

Nicephorus · August 14, 2007, 02:38:13 PM

Quote from: AosIf we're going to save the hobby I think the first thing we need to do is safeguard the world's dorrito, funion, and cheeto supplies.

Don't forget the strategic reserve tanks of Mt. Dew.

Aos · August 14, 2007, 02:39:39 PM

My God, you're right- I'll dispatch the fifteenth batallion (Gary's Fighting Fatbeards) right away.

Balbinus · August 14, 2007, 02:40:15 PM

Quote from: AosIf we're going to save the hobby I think the first thing we need to do is safeguard the world's dorrito, funion, and cheeto supplies.

Cheetos are disgusting IMO, and funion is not a word.

At my table we eat fine cheeses and cured meats and drink wine and real ale.

Aos · August 14, 2007, 02:41:57 PM

Quote from: BalbinusCheetos are disgusting IMO, and funion is not a word.

At my table we eat fine cheeses and cured meats and drink wine and real ale.

I bet you have a job, a girl and your own residence too.
it's people like you that are ruining it for everyone else.

jgants · August 14, 2007, 02:43:18 PM

Quote from: BalbinusFor me creating story is a byproduct of play, and great play does not necessarily lead to great stories or indeed much of any story at all.

The best "stories" to arise from gaming are almost always in the "remember the time when [player] did [stupid thing] and [funny result] happened?" vein, anyways. At least, they are for me.

I can't think of any gaming memories where somebody said, "Hey, remember that awesome narrative structure in [game x]?" or "How about [game y] - that had some rockin' allegories!" or maybe "I loved the use of comparing and contrasting the PCs life with the NPCs life in [gamez]."

Pierce Inverarity · August 14, 2007, 02:46:23 PM

At my table we used to smoke and imbibe alcoholic beverages, but now that I live in the US where everyone's a health fascist* I'm reduced to kicking ass and/or chewing bubblegum.

*Except when it comes to food.