Quote from: SettembriniA hobby, where fans can outsmart and outthink and are better informed the "industry" is in dire straits.

I don't know about that. Hollywood and Network TV seem to be going pretty strong.

Quote from: SettembriniEspecially since there is no competition between players in D&D who levels first. Everybody should and will level about the same time +- one evening.

What you say makes no sense.

In every single game group I've ever seen or even heard about, there is competition to get more XP than the other guy and level first.  Players get irate when they get less XP than the other guy or are behind in levels.  Meanwhile players who are ahead make a point that they are indeed "winning" compared to the players who get less XP and levels.

Quote from: GabrielWhat you say makes no sense.

In every single game group I've ever seen or even heard about, there is competition to get more XP than the other guy and level first.  Players get irate when they get less XP than the other guy or are behind in levels.  Meanwhile players who are ahead make a point that they are indeed "winning" compared to the players who get less XP and levels.

In every single game group I've been in or heard about this is not the case.  Having lower level characters in the group is seen as a hinderance, and they often want to get them 'caught back up' to everyone else.

There's lots of different ways to play an RPG.

Quote from: MaddmanHaving lower level characters in the group is seen as a hinderance, and they often want to get them 'caught back up' to everyone else.

In other words, they're "losing," they know it, and they're behaving accordingly by competitively trying to catch up to the "winners."

Quote from: GabrielIn other words, they're "losing," they know it, and they're behaving accordingly by competitively trying to catch up to the "winners."

Well, they don't need to, most of the time. They can stand back and reap the extremely high XP rewards they get from the high-level encounters.

I've never done this much in pen & paper campaigns, but in the high-level Gold Box AD&D  games, immediate dual-classing was kinda fun. You surmounted your old level within the first few combats and had enough hit points to survive them. I especially recommend starting as ranger and dual-classing to wizard

Quote from: SosthenesI've never done this much in pen & paper campaigns, but in the high-level Gold Box AD&D  games, immediate dual-classing was kinda fun. You surmounted your old level within the first few combats and had enough hit points to survive them. I especially recommend starting as ranger and dual-classing to wizard

I've never done that before.

The one thing that threw everyone I ever knew who played the Gold box games, or any official D&D based game, was spell preparation.  No one I've ever met ever played with spell preparation as detailed in the books and implemented in the computer games.  Everyone used a system like Wizardry and every other computer game with spell slots used.  If you had an applicable spell slot available, you could cast any spell you knew.

Having to select which specific spells you could cast per day struck everyone as clunky and pointless.  Yet, everyone stuck with the game because of its depth and awesome combat system.

It was also most players' introduction to things like Sweep Attacks and Training Costs.  I knew of these rules, but everyone else went "WTF?" whenever they encountered them.

Other things were hidden, but even Weapon Speed and Weapon versus Armor modifiers became known about when friends were asking "Why can't I hit anything?"  or "Why is my fighter always going dead last?"

I still remember long sessions of playing to gather up the damn gold needed to raise the Thief up a level, because they needed more gold for training than they had received for XP.

Quote from: GabrielIn every single game group I've ever seen or even heard about, there is competition to get more XP than the other guy and level first.

Weird our group everyone gets the same XP, even if they miss a week and someone else plays their character, we all level at the same time. What is this competition you speak of? Is there a prize?

Edit: and as James points out xp is shared evenly in the group under 3+ rules, so unless people miss a week or lose XP due to level drain or item creation the party should be on the same level anyway.

3.x XP is generally awarded to the group as a whole. I don't recall any specific single person rewards in the books. Doesn't mean that they can't exist, but if they do it's not the game causing the competitiveness, it's the rules addons.

Quote from: GabrielIn other words, they're "losing," they know it, and they're behaving accordingly by competitively trying to catch up to the "winners."

Read what Maddman said again. He's not talking about the low level characters busting their ass to catch up with the high levels, he's talking about the high levels busting their ass to get the low levels caught up.

Why? Because the low level characters weaken the party as a whole. And when you're out in High Dudgeon facing a blue wyrm you don't want a weak party. Competition has nothing to do with it, it's a matter of survival.

Quote from: mythusmageRead what Maddman said again. He's not talking about the low level characters busting their ass to catch up with the high levels, he's talking about the high levels busting their ass to get the low levels caught up.

Why? Because the low level characters weaken the party as a whole. And when you're out in High Dudgeon facing a blue wyrm you don't want a weak party. Competition has nothing to do with it, it's a matter of survival.

Exactly.  Seeing it, at least in my circle of gamers, as competition between players is viewed as somewhat childish, and the game focuses on the characters vs the setting and antagonists as a whole.  If one of the characters is weaker then the team is weaker.  It's like the quarterback thinking he's getting ahead when the center pulls a muscle - he's further ahead in the quality of the individual members, but they're gonna lose the football game.

QuoteExactly. Seeing it, at least in my circle of gamers, as competition between players is viewed as somewhat childish, and the game focuses on the characters vs the setting and antagonists as a whole. If one of the characters is weaker then the team is weaker. It's like the quarterback thinking he's getting ahead when the center pulls a muscle - he's further ahead in the quality of the individual members, but they're gonna lose the football game.

Totally with Maddman there. And never ever heard of a "level race" gaming group. And believe me, I´m one of those dreaded "minuature pushaz" and "gun porn lovaz", I´m no Storyionic or Thematician. Where did Gabriel meet those guys?

In every single game I have ever played, save my old Vamp LARP for reasons of persistance of gameworld, we have always kept the PCs on equal level.  Everyone gets the same XP, because everyone was there, and it keeps the players balanced in respect to each other, which makes thigns easier for the GM, and keeps the players from feeling gimped in respect to their companions.