Quote from: Caesar SlaadAnd?

Even if I bought into the "it's not a reward if it doesn't yield a bonus", buying magic items with it... yields a bonus.

Now you've confused me.  You were the one arguing that treasure was its own reward, right?  I say you're wrong.  Treasure exists in the current game primarily to buy shiny widgets.

My earlier point was the elimination of the rule that gold pieces could be converted in experiences points radically altered the dynamic of the game.  It's one of the reasons 3.x is more tactical and less strategic.

Quote from: fonkaygarryIs there a breakdown of the reasoning behind 3.x's treasure system?  Reading up on the RC, it's obvious there was a major change in the reasoning behind gp; I'd like to find out what it was.

If I remember correctly, the RC didn't even have gold piece values for the magical items, so there you had gems & gold at one side and magical items on the other. That was different with previous editions of AD&D, but even then the basic assumption was that you couldn't just go out and buy the stuff you needed.

"Unification" is the big word for D20. All treasure the party can gain is totalled, money and magical items are totally interchangible. Even low-level PCs can already create items (at a greatly reduced price). They are much, much more mundane in the new edition.

This assumption is one of the foundations of the game now, taking out items will destroy the game balance. Without tweaking the monsters, they'll wreak holy havoc. And non-mages are even worse of than they're already...

Before the RC, neither Mentzer nor Moldvay nor Holmes have GP prices for magic items.  Nor do the Little Beige Books.

Quote from: jrientsNow you've confused me.  You were the one arguing that treasure was its own reward, right?  I say you're wrong.  Treasure exists in the current game primarily to buy shiny widgets.

By saying it's its own reward, I am saying that it gets you other benefits... you don't NEED it to give you XP too.

Whatever Caesar was saying, I think he meant that treasure is an in-game reward because it has inherent in-game benefits, like being able to buy magic items. Whereas having it also provide XP makes it a double reward.

(Does any version actually allow GP to be converted to XP? The way I played white box & AD&D 1e was that the value of treasure gained = the XP you got...but you still kept the treasure.)

Quote from: Elliot WilenWhatever Caesar was saying, I think he meant that treasure is an in-game reward because it has inherent in-game benefits, like being able to buy magic items. Whereas having it also provide XP makes it a double reward.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the interchangeability of gp and items, etc. is specifically to facilitate the campaigns (Mark of Heroes, Living Grewhawk, etc.). This makes sense as it eases the ability of a large, disparate DM-organization to create a world-wide campaign that has some continuity.

But then you go and say that you'd like to see a change to the XP system that would introduce something fundamentally opposed to that purpose?  I mean, if you're going to try to give XP for actual uses of skills, then isn't that going to:

• complicate adventure writing for those very campaigns (including XP for all of the variants of classes that might take part in an encounter)?
• complicate tracking of said XP in a world-wide campaign?
• introduce even more subjectivity into the XP dispensing process?
• one or more of all of the above?

Just a thought...

Quote from: James J Skach

• complicate adventure writing for those very campaigns (including XP for all of the variants of classes that might take part in an encounter)?
• complicate tracking of said XP in a world-wide campaign?
• introduce even more subjectivity into the XP dispensing process?
• one or more of all of the above?

Me oh my, alternative XP systems. Yes, they have to be carefully thought out. And yes, almost every DM already has one in place. As you control all the other factors, too, things shouldn't get out of hand.
As a general replacement for, let's say 4E, well, then it has to be pretty good.

I don't think adventure writing would take that much more time. There's more than one way to skin a goblin, so if you present them with a certain obstacle, how they solve it will depend on their classes. No need to cater to certain players, give them one rat-infested hole and you'll get different solutions from the blackguard, the hexblade, the fighter (some still out there) and the Holy Dishwasher Of The Self-Flagelatting Wizard-God.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen(Does any version actually allow GP to be converted to XP?

Only some very interesting variants.  I thinking particularly of the hobby rules in Arneson's First Fantasy Campaign (though I'd need to re-read those) and the excellent little Dragon article "Orgies, Inc."

In early D&D there wasn't that much stuff one could spend a fortune on unless you were saving for a castle or somesuch.  They existed mostly as points to be scored.  "Orgies, Inc." added an extra step by requiring the money to be spent frivously to earn those xps.

"Orgies. Inc."  is the best title for a Dragon article ever, BTW.

Quote from: jrientsIn early D&D there wasn't that much stuff one could spend a fortune on

Mostly because we were to young to know about fornication and fermentation?

Quote from: SosthenesMostly because we were to young to know about fornication and fermentation?

Ale & Whores, that is?

Quote from: Caesar SlaadAle & Whores, that is?

For starters.

Quote from: jrientsIn early D&D there wasn't that much stuff one could spend a fortune on unless you were saving for a castle or somesuch.  They existed mostly as points to be scored.

Ah, yes, it's coming back to me. After Adventure #1, everyone buys Plate Mail (the fighters & clerics at least)...and after that, stuff like Iron Rations and 10 foot poles aren't really going to put a dent in the PCs' savings.

Basically, once the Thief class was introduced in Greyhawk, I suppose there was a strong argument for having a way to get experience without killing the beasties. And even before that you might have treasures that could be gotten through cleverness rather than combat. But a lot of the time it seemed to me that instead of giving XP for gold, you might as well just double the XP for each monster on the assumption that it'd be guarding treasure commensurate with its toughness (and no more than that).

Quote from: jrients"Orgies. Inc."  is the best title for a Dragon article ever, BTW.

What issue was that in?

Quote from: KnightskyWhat issue was that in?

Dragon #10. 1977. Gee, a few months older than me...