QuoteOh, I can see the appeal.  It's just that the reality is that a "good" classless system is unachievable.  A "good enough" system, however.

It's like creating a gish.  You can make a character that serves as a secondary fighter or a secondary magic user, but will never shine as either.  Because creating a true gish would outshine every other class.  So, just from a balance perspective, you have to design the mechanics such that any fighter-magic user combo becomes less than the sum of its parts.

If you use D&D like fantasy with very strong divide between fight and spellcasting then yes. But of course that's just small fraction of possible fantasy settings to try.
The most obvious solution is synergy of powers - gish is not using mediocre spellcasting and mediocre hack and slashing - he use both to get some unique effects on par with classic classes. Which is not really weird solution - gishing is common in literature.

QuoteThe same is true with classless systems.  There are synergies that can be achieved (and, most importantly, balanced) via classes that aren't going to happen via skills.  Or, if they do, those synergies are so much better that the relevant skils are just plain better when taken together, at which point they might as well be a class.  So it's a very fine line to tread.  And all for characters who often feel less "robust" (because they are missing the little bangles that get added in classes that aren't worth taking as independent skills), or less comprehensive (usually because most classless systems are vulnerable to hyper-specialization).  So, while I recognize the theoretical allure of classless systems... that way lies madness...

Which matters if you play dungeon crawls or heavy tactical RPG's.
But that's not the only option. My philosophy is that any skill should be useful, any attribute be hindrace if lacking. I don't care wheter you are fighter, wizard or monk - Low Charisma is gonna hinders you in gameplay.

QuoteI've had quite a few classless games go off of the rails because different players approached their characters with different build philosophies. 

Could you get some specific example.

QuoteAnd GM fiat is a poor substitute for broken mechanics.  A great DM can make any game playable, but that doesn't make every playable game great.

To certain degree it's inavoidable. If your classless PC is specialising in something very much leaving other skills aside let's say Thievery.
Then making everything solvable by Thievery gonna make him outshine rest of a team. Making nothing solvable by Thievery... other way round.

And in class based systems it still exist. Depending on what classes are on board you can either hinder game for some PC's or make them stars of the show.
Push constantly heavily magic resistant oponents on your team and your evoker Wizard PC may gonna get bit cranky

Quote from: Jam The MF on October 30, 2021, 12:55:58 AM
I'm sure there must already be such a game in print?

Traveller.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 09, 2021, 04:40:30 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 08, 2021, 10:23:47 PM

Quote from: jhkim on November 08, 2021, 08:15:37 PM
In any system (including class-based), it's important for the GM to be willing to say "no" to certain characters -- but moreso for point-based classless systems.

And GM fiat is a poor substitute for broken mechanics.  A great DM can make any game playable, but that doesn't make every playable game great.

To certain degree it's inavoidable. If your classless PC is specialising in something very much leaving other skills aside let's say Thievery.
Then making everything solvable by Thievery gonna make him outshine rest of a team. Making nothing solvable by Thievery... other way round.

And in class based systems it still exist. Depending on what classes are on board you can either hinder game for some PC's or make them stars of the show.
Push constantly heavily magic resistant oponents on your team and your evoker Wizard PC may gonna get bit cranky

Following up on Wrath of God's point.... In a board game, game balance can be mechanically enforced within the fixed possibilities. In a role-playing game with completely open possibilities, I don't think it's possible except by active GM intervention -- either by restricting the characters, or by tailoring the adventures to suit the balance of characters.

Typically in class-based systems, balance works by having all adventures conform to a certain pattern - with a certain balance of combat, stealth, and other challenges. But a classless system allow characters tailored to different sorts of adventures. For example, I played in a Burning Wheel campaign set in Harn, which was about establishing a Ilviran church in a new city. For that, we all had some social skills - and my character was specialized in Duel of Wits. In typical D&D adventures, our characters would be not balanced with each other - but we fit the campaign fairly well.

One could have a fantasy campaign that's entirely set behind enemy lines in Mordor or the equivalent - so everyone needs to sneak about. In a given class-based system, many classes just wouldn't be workable for this, and others would be better or worse suited. In a classless system, though, all the players can take suitable stealth and/or disguise skills in addition to their other abilities.

That flexibility comes at a price of needing more oversight of character creation. It's a matter of opinion whether the flexibility is worth it. Personally, I enjoy both class-based and non-class-based.

QuoteOne could have a fantasy campaign that's entirely set behind enemy lines in Mordor or the equivalent - so everyone needs to sneak about. In a given class-based system, many classes just wouldn't be workable for this, and others would be better or worse suited. In a classless system, though, all the players can take suitable stealth and/or disguise skills in addition to their other abilities.

That flexibility comes at a price of needing more oversight of character creation. It's a matter of opinion whether the flexibility is worth it. Personally, I enjoy both class-based and non-class-based.

TBH even in class based systems you can end with PC's in theory well balanced with team, but much worse considering campaign nature.