Revised/2e Gamma World is a classless system. It doesnt even have levels.

BX D&D had an article for a create your own class system in Dragon. 2e D&D had a less useful version in the core books.

Tunnels & Trolls has ping-ponged between pseudo-classes and a single omni-class.

Call of Cthulhu is a class based system. Just not like most others.

Star Frontiers was another pseudo-class based system. Three profession tracks and you can acquire skills from any track, just at a higher cost than your choosen one. Though an issue of Dragon opted a jack-of-all trades path that had a flat cost for all profession skills. But some cost more than would had you focused.

If I recall right, TSR's Conan RPG was a classless one, or darn close.

Theres lots of variations on this. Several superhero RPGs like TSR's MSH are classless.

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 02, 2021, 04:39:29 PM

QuoteThere's a reason nobody ever tried to play a multiclass fighter/thief/magic-user/cleric in D&D.

Fair point. Let me backpedal a little then: Stipulating that somebody somewhere probably tried at least once, I doubt they kept it up for long.  Being 2nd level in four classes does not make you able to keep up with everyone else who's eighth level in one class.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on November 03, 2021, 08:48:21 AM

Quote from: Wrath of God on November 02, 2021, 04:39:29 PM

QuoteThere's a reason nobody ever tried to play a multiclass fighter/thief/magic-user/cleric in D&D.

Fair point. Let me backpedal a little then: Stipulating that somebody somewhere probably tried at least once, I doubt they kept it up for long.  Being 2nd level in four classes does not make you able to keep up with everyone else who's eighth level in one class.

You'd have some cool versatility, if nothing else.

Quote from: Jam The MF on November 03, 2021, 08:49:30 PMYou'd have some cool versatility, if nothing else.

True. But versatility is only useful when specialization isn't available, for whatever reason. The downside of being the second-string backup to everyone else is that you never get a first-string spotlight chance of your own.

There are lots of skill-based non-D&D games; some of my favorites are GURPS and Mythras. There is also Savage Worlds and many others.

If you want something close to OSR/D&D, take a look at mine. Classes are just collection of feats; most checks are skills.

Dark Fantasy Basic
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/229046/Dark-Fantasy-Basic--Players-Guide

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on November 04, 2021, 12:01:56 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on November 03, 2021, 08:49:30 PMYou'd have some cool versatility, if nothing else.

True. But versatility is only useful when specialization isn't available, for whatever reason. The downside of being the second-string backup to everyone else is that you never get a first-string spotlight chance of your own.

True; but being a jack of all trades backup to everyone else in the party could be handy, especially if one of the other players goes down in combat.  Primary healer goes down?  Primary caster goes down?  Primary skill monkey goes down?  Front line melee or back line ranged combatant goes down?  You can always help the party get by in a pinch, and you can focus more on role play.  No need to obsess over min-maxing.  Just try to be versatile.

Shadowrun is another classless system. And a pretty good one too.

Theres also oddball omni-systems there there are classes. But they are more like skill packages or 2e kits than actual classes.

Dragon Storm had backgrounds you could pick up. But were usually not limited to just one. You could be a farmer and a remorseful apprentice. Or you might be an apprentice and later pick up Night Witch. Or you might not pick up any at all. You did though need an appropriate background to be able to case spells from that background. Such was how the game worked. So in a way they functioned more like professions than classes.

My own book back in the 90s was a bit of a mix. Players would choose a profession. But from there were free to acquire about anything if they could both find a teacher and had the right aptitude. Mainly because the professions just gave you a set of starter skills and some of those skills granted access to spellcasting. The professions were more a guideline to the DM as to what the players initial concept was and to spark ideas for any background

QuoteFair point. Let me backpedal a little then: Stipulating that somebody somewhere probably tried at least once, I doubt they kept it up for long.  Being 2nd level in four classes does not make you able to keep up with everyone else who's eighth level in one class.

That just makes you perfectly fine 8th level bard

I much prefer class-less and level-less systems.

Wanna group a bucket of skills that are tied to a "profession," and you buy them fleet less than offer skills?  Right up my alley.  Go even further and use a life path system that gives you x amount of points in certain skills each term.

Reverb combat should be skill based.

I have simmilar sentiments generally speaking.

I can't see the appeal of a classless Fantasy system.

A game where you're playing a Sci-Fi and you're using archetypes or backstories like TMNT & OS makes sense. Though you could call the different backgrounds classes of a sort.

QuoteI can't see the appeal of a classless Fantasy system.

Simple, you can customize your character as you want, and everything is some sort of skill/feat/talent.
Fantasy does not need to hang on tactical combat engines promoting high specialisation level.

Quote from: PsyXypher on November 06, 2021, 11:06:46 PM
I can't see the appeal of a classless Fantasy system.

Oh, I can see the appeal.  It's just that the reality is that a "good" classless system is unachievable.  A "good enough" system, however.

It's like creating a gish.  You can make a character that serves as a secondary fighter or a secondary magic user, but will never shine as either.  Because creating a true gish would outshine every other class.  So, just from a balance perspective, you have to design the mechanics such that any fighter-magic user combo becomes less than the sum of its parts.

The same is true with classless systems.  There are synergies that can be achieved (and, most importantly, balanced) via classes that aren't going to happen via skills.  Or, if they do, those synergies are so much better that the relevant skils are just plain better when taken together, at which point they might as well be a class.  So it's a very fine line to tread.  And all for characters who often feel less "robust" (because they are missing the little bangles that get added in classes that aren't worth taking as independent skills), or less comprehensive (usually because most classless systems are vulnerable to hyper-specialization).  So, while I recognize the theoretical allure of classless systems... that way lies madness...

Quote from: PsyXypher on November 06, 2021, 11:06:46 PM
I can't see the appeal of a classless Fantasy system.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 08, 2021, 07:07:33 PM
The same is true with classless systems.  There are synergies that can be achieved (and, most importantly, balanced) via classes that aren't going to happen via skills.  Or, if they do, those synergies are so much better that the relevant skils are just plain better when taken together, at which point they might as well be a class.  So it's a very fine line to tread.  And all for characters who often feel less "robust" (because they are missing the little bangles that get added in classes that aren't worth taking as independent skills), or less comprehensive (usually because most classless systems are vulnerable to hyper-specialization).  So, while I recognize the theoretical allure of classless systems... that way lies madness...

What classless systems have you used, Eirikrautha? I've enjoyed RuneQuest, HarnMaster, Burning Wheel, GURPS, Savage Worlds, Hero System, Amber Diceless, Ars Magica, Pendragon, Mouse Guard, and Dresden Files -- plus probably a bunch of others more for one-shots and such. I have some complaints about each of them, but I don't find that they're inferior to class-based.

Which ones have you played?

I find that while technically it's possible to create an effective hyper-specialized character in most classless systems, in my experience that hasn't happened. Mostly the players have created more believable and robust characters, and the times when they don't, usually the GM steps in to disallow it. ("No, you can't put all your points into just Strength and Sword.") In any system (including class-based), it's important for the GM to be willing to say "no" to certain characters -- but moreso for point-based classless systems.

Quote from: jhkim on November 08, 2021, 08:15:37 PM

Quote from: PsyXypher on November 06, 2021, 11:06:46 PM
I can't see the appeal of a classless Fantasy system.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 08, 2021, 07:07:33 PM
The same is true with classless systems.  There are synergies that can be achieved (and, most importantly, balanced) via classes that aren't going to happen via skills.  Or, if they do, those synergies are so much better that the relevant skils are just plain better when taken together, at which point they might as well be a class.  So it's a very fine line to tread.  And all for characters who often feel less "robust" (because they are missing the little bangles that get added in classes that aren't worth taking as independent skills), or less comprehensive (usually because most classless systems are vulnerable to hyper-specialization).  So, while I recognize the theoretical allure of classless systems... that way lies madness...

What classless systems have you used, Eirikrautha? I've enjoyed RuneQuest, HarnMaster, Burning Wheel, GURPS, Savage Worlds, Hero System, Amber Diceless, Ars Magica, Pendragon, Mouse Guard, and Dresden Files -- plus probably a bunch of others more for one-shots and such. I have some complaints about each of them, but I don't find that they're inferior to class-based.

Which ones have you played?

I find that while technically it's possible to create an effective hyper-specialized character in most classless systems, in my experience that hasn't happened. Mostly the players have created more believable and robust characters, and the times when they don't, usually the GM steps in to disallow it. ("No, you can't put all your points into just Strength and Sword.") In any system (including class-based), it's important for the GM to be willing to say "no" to certain characters -- but moreso for point-based classless systems.

I've played all of the ones you've mentioned (sans the last two), plus several sci-fi and supers games that are classless or semi-classless.

I must say, your whole "I haven't seen it; therefore it must be rare or nonexistent" shtick is getting old.  It's pretty much your response to everything, instead of directly addressing any points made.  I've had quite a few classless games go off of the rails because different players approached their characters with different build philosophies.  That happens in class-based systems, too, but generally only the modern ones (no one complained about "builds" in AD&D, because there was no such thing).  Would you like to address any points, for once?

And GM fiat is a poor substitute for broken mechanics.  A great DM can make any game playable, but that doesn't make every playable game great.