This thread is about discussing running games in historical settings which aren't mainstream or at least don't get enough attention.

I tried running games set, for example, in the 17th century. I used to run a discord server centered around rpgs and LFG. Needless to say, it was nothing other than idiots who wanted to play D&D "anime xD" for the lulz and the memes (in Spanish, of course) so it didn't gain any traction because of obvious reasons. I would often make posts with orthographical errors/horrors, including kitsunes and lolis and what do you know? It got lots of attention. Making a more reasonable post with a non-D&D setting would get less attention.

But I do wonder if it would have been a good option; there isn't much material on it and from what I could gather, the only inspiring things about it are the three musketeers, Alatriste... and that's all. There isn't a lot of material on that century. Warfare is not as epic as in medieval or renaissance times but still not sophisticated enough to compare to napoleonics. I guess I just like the Pike & Shot aesthetics. Maybe it'd be better to play an 18th century (pirates, revolutions, enlightenment, court drama, powdered wigs, etc.) or 15th century setting (Columbus, crossbowmen, the Americas, renaissance intrigue, early gunpowder, etc.)

Anyway, what are your thoughts on running these kinds of settings? (17th century, 18th, renaissance, napoleonics, dark ages, bronze age, eastern europe, byzantine empire, etc.) Why aren't people interested in historical settings in general and prefer fantasy analogs?

I can see how some might view it as a lot of extra work.

DND / Fantasy tropes are easy because they are built for expectations. Every town has an inn. You can use coins instead of barter.

Then there are the moralisms. While I am not saying the DND tropes are "Fantasy Seattle," a lot of historical societies were extremely intolerant.

If everyone is really buying into it, it can be a lot of fun. I ran Bushido a few times and, some sessions were quite successful and enjoyable, whereas those that didn't take the setting seriously found themselves close to losing their heads around those that did.

Quote from: Lynn on August 31, 2021, 01:22:09 PM
I can see how some might view it as a lot of extra work.

DND / Fantasy tropes are easy because they are built for expectations. Every town has an inn. You can use coins instead of barter.

Then there are the moralisms. While I am not saying the DND tropes are "Fantasy Seattle," a lot of historical societies were extremely intolerant.

If everyone is really buying into it, it can be a lot of fun. I ran Bushido a few times and, some sessions were quite successful and enjoyable, whereas those that didn't take the setting seriously found themselves close to losing their heads around those that did.

Why were they losing their heads?

Edit: Only Americans, Canadians and the British care about tolerance in settings. The rest of the world doesn't give a fuck

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 31, 2021, 01:27:46 PM

Quote from: Lynn on August 31, 2021, 01:22:09 PM
I ran Bushido a few times and, some sessions were quite successful and enjoyable, whereas those that didn't take the setting seriously found themselves close to losing their heads around those that did.

Why were they losing their heads?

Edit: Only Americans, Canadians and the British care about tolerance in settings. The rest of the world doesn't give a fuck

Some non-samurai PCs were smart mouthing the samurai PCs, especially at the wrong time.

I mentioned tolerance within context of the setting, not the SJW rabbit hole.

An advantage of a lesser-known historical setting is that there is more wiggle room.
While you might have to explain it more, should be fewer "corrections" from players.

Quote from: Greentongue on August 31, 2021, 01:48:40 PM
An advantage of a lesser-known historical setting is that there is more wiggle room.
While you might have to explain it more, should be fewer "corrections" from players.

To me it is the other way around. A more popular setting allows you to have more leeway since you already know what it is like; everybody knows medieval Europe more or less, so you can improvise and decide when to take some liberties. But what is an 18th century town like? Or ancient egypt? You don't know as much, so you may feel constrained to work with the limited information you have.

SonTodoGato,

The information you need is out there.  Especially if you speak Spanish.  The Spaniards kept impeccable records. 

Also, there are quite afew fantasy games that are set in the 17th C. or are close enough to it that you can easily adapt. I will suggest a few:

AD&D 2nd edition, H4, A Mighty Fortress, deals with running a D&D game in Europe between 1550-1650.  Suggests class options, talks about politics and daily life, gives a historical timeline, even has a currency exchange system.  Frankly I love this book. 

Flashing Blades RPG. Set i  France during the 30 years war.  The game is based on Dumas' Three Musketeers novels.  I personally don't care for the system, but you can buy the adventures and rip them off-...err...adapt them to for your campaign.  Linky:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/585

Lamentations of the Flame Princess has a couple of adventures set in 17th century Europe and they are amazing (in my humble opinion)! England Upturn'd, which is set in England during the Civil War (1640's), Better Than Any Man, set in Germany in 1630, The Magnificent Jooo Van Ooms, set in 17th century Amsterdam. All three have high elements of the Supernatural in them.  Better Than Any Man will probably kill a few characters.  Adapt as you see fit.

GURPS Swashbucklers.  Sounds like cheese, but the book is pretty damned good, there is a whole section about swordplay and vatious options you can incorporate into your game. There are adventure ideas as well.

Savage Worlds has a Solomon Kane game that is set in the 1590's, very close to what you are looking for.

7th Sea, The mythical setting of Theah is modeled after 16th and 17th century Europe. Thereis a ton of shyt you can swipe from here, or even just play the game as-is.  There is magic, but it is low-key stuff.  Sorcery is rare. The collection of works is HUGE. 

I hope this helps you find what you need?

Greetings!

Yes, running Historical Campaigns--or even fantasy campaigns with strong historical elements--can be a project. Such a campaign can be a project for the DM, with lots of reading, and considerable preparation of notes, creating appropriate campaign aids, tables, and summaries. There is a substantial aspect of extra work beyond the typical "Disney D&D". THEN, of course, if the players are not historically literate--they are very likely to run face-first into a trainwreck of problems. Furthermore, even if they manage to avoid being swiftly killed, the trainwreck of problems and difficulties for such players can cascade into a seemingly daily struggle to survive--even when visiting a village or town. There can certainly be a "Cultural Learning Curve" involved.

Of course, the DM can set the dial along a spectrum, dialing in more or less historically-inspired content. Whenever dealing with more than just a pinch of flavour though, one can expect more work for the DM, and more challenges for the players that have far more to do with them learning to fit in appropriately or successfully with the local human culture than such challenges dealing with monsters or humanoids.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on August 31, 2021, 02:51:39 PM
GURPS Swashbucklers.  Sounds like cheese, but the book is pretty damned good, there is a whole section about swordplay and vatious options you can incorporate into your game. There are adventure ideas as well.

GURPS Scarlet Pimpernel is another interesting one. Despite being aimed at a fictional character, it doubles as a historical sourcebook for the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror. It works with Swashbucklers, but it can stand on its own.

I can't speak for the 17th+ century games, as the latest I'm usually going to run is circa 1400 tech.  For the dark ages equivalents you mentioned, I'm usually running something that starts there and then is more fantastical than what you could reasonably call a "historical setting", but that's OK. Because whether I run something more or less historical from that time frame, the reality is that is going to be up to me to somehow communicate that setting to the players.  Same goes for the fantastical elements, for that matter.

The players aren't going to read tons of history or even novels from the time frame, let alone then adjust for the differences.  It's going to be rare to have a film that portrays exactly what I want without also introducing a lot of other bits that will need to be "unlearned" to grasp the setting.  So the best thing is to come up with a few bullet points that are key which you can then hammer home early and repeatedly, mixed with some rules, equipment, etc. that will reinforce those points.

For example, i can go on and on about the types of armor and why the are present, maybe even try to get something period included.  But the key thing is going to be the absence of plate (possibly available from a fantastical culture) and similar things.  In a larger sense, this is why limits and restrictions matter so much in any game that isn't joyfully kitchen sink or at least focused on more adventure than setting.  A similar place for a musketeer-type game is that you need the rules to reflect why people aren't wearing heavy armor but blades are still important even with muskets and their pistol equivalents.  Or you just say, "this is the possible armor and equipment list," period and be done with it.  Same thing with the economy, social standing, etc.  It has to be shown to have an effect in game, not just something referred to with no real changes.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on August 31, 2021, 02:51:39 PM
SonTodoGato,

The information you need is out there.  Especially if you speak Spanish.  The Spaniards kept impeccable records. 

Also, there are quite afew fantasy games that are set in the 17th C. or are close enough to it that you can easily adapt. I will suggest a few:

AD&D 2nd edition, H4, A Mighty Fortress, deals with running a D&D game in Europe between 1550-1650.  Suggests class options, talks about politics and daily life, gives a historical timeline, even has a currency exchange system.  Frankly I love this book. 

Flashing Blades RPG. Set i  France during the 30 years war.  The game is based on Dumas' Three Musketeers novels.  I personally don't care for the system, but you can buy the adventures and rip them off-...err...adapt them to for your campaign.  Linky:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/585

Lamentations of the Flame Princess has a couple of adventures set in 17th century Europe and they are amazing (in my humble opinion)! England Upturn'd, which is set in England during the Civil War (1640's), Better Than Any Man, set in Germany in 1630, The Magnificent Jooo Van Ooms, set in 17th century Amsterdam. All three have high elements of the Supernatural in them.  Better Than Any Man will probably kill a few characters.  Adapt as you see fit.

GURPS Swashbucklers.  Sounds like cheese, but the book is pretty damned good, there is a whole section about swordplay and vatious options you can incorporate into your game. There are adventure ideas as well.

Savage Worlds has a Solomon Kane game that is set in the 1590's, very close to what you are looking for.

7th Sea, The mythical setting of Theah is modeled after 16th and 17th century Europe. Thereis a ton of shyt you can swipe from here, or even just play the game as-is.  There is magic, but it is low-key stuff.  Sorcery is rare. The collection of works is HUGE. 

I hope this helps you find what you need?

All of it is great material. I would also add Alatriste RPG, and 17th century minimalist, and there are others about that topic but are not that good or aren't available (Villa y Corte or En Garde!). I'll be checking out LOTFP and the D&D module. Thanks

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2021, 03:38:49 PM
Greetings!

Yes, running Historical Campaigns--or even fantasy campaigns with strong historical elements--can be a project. Such a campaign can be a project for the DM, with lots of reading, and considerable preparation of notes, creating appropriate campaign aids, tables, and summaries. There is a substantial aspect of extra work beyond the typical "Disney D&D". THEN, of course, if the players are not historically literate--they are very likely to run face-first into a trainwreck of problems. Furthermore, even if they manage to avoid being swiftly killed, the trainwreck of problems and difficulties for such players can cascade into a seemingly daily struggle to survive--even when visiting a village or town. There can certainly be a "Cultural Learning Curve" involved.

SHARK

What frustrates me the most is the fact that one takes time to do some research to pull off a decent setting but when the actual game comes the players are idiots who also don't give a single fuck and play "medieval europe but with pistols xDD" and slap a noble across the face because "that's what my character would do xDDD :v" . It's very frustrating to prepare a nice setting for people who can't appreciate it. I don't blame them, but it is underwhelming anyway.

QuoteSo the best thing is to come up with a few bullet points that are key which you can then hammer home early and repeatedly, mixed with some rules, equipment, etc. that will reinforce those points.

Terrific advice.

Question for everyone: How would you summarize your favourite historical period in a few bullet points?

How much magic and fantastical elements is too much for a historical setting?

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 31, 2021, 12:49:43 PM

Anyway, what are your thoughts on running these kinds of settings? (17th century, 18th, renaissance, napoleonics, dark ages, bronze age, eastern europe, byzantine empire, etc.) Why aren't people interested in historical settings in general and prefer fantasy analogs?

Robert E Howard originally wrote historical fiction but he felt the research slowed down his writing too much so he developed a composite hyperborean era that had analogs to historical periods as regions that his protagonist could visit. Zingara was medieval France. The Aquilonean frontier was the American west reconstructed with faux romans vs. picts. He had the Vanir and the Aesir fighting in the northlands. He felt this stirred similar feelings in a reader as historical fiction, was recognizable, and yet too less effort as he could toss out authenticity.

I suspect a lot of our fantasy has followed his lead and we are used to it as a part of our fantasy to have some historical nearness but also distance. It's just the comfort zone for those who buy the product and possibly those who write it and publish it.

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 31, 2021, 07:50:45 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on August 31, 2021, 02:51:39 PM
SonTodoGato,

The information you need is out there.  Especially if you speak Spanish.  The Spaniards kept impeccable records. 

Also, there are quite afew fantasy games that are set in the 17th C. or are close enough to it that you can easily adapt. I will suggest a few:

AD&D 2nd edition, H4, A Mighty Fortress, deals with running a D&D game in Europe between 1550-1650.  Suggests class options, talks about politics and daily life, gives a historical timeline, even has a currency exchange system.  Frankly I love this book. 

Flashing Blades RPG. Set i  France during the 30 years war.  The game is based on Dumas' Three Musketeers novels.  I personally don't care for the system, but you can buy the adventures and rip them off-...err...adapt them to for your campaign.  Linky:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/585

Lamentations of the Flame Princess has a couple of adventures set in 17th century Europe and they are amazing (in my humble opinion)! England Upturn'd, which is set in England during the Civil War (1640's), Better Than Any Man, set in Germany in 1630, The Magnificent Jooo Van Ooms, set in 17th century Amsterdam. All three have high elements of the Supernatural in them.  Better Than Any Man will probably kill a few characters.  Adapt as you see fit.

GURPS Swashbucklers.  Sounds like cheese, but the book is pretty damned good, there is a whole section about swordplay and vatious options you can incorporate into your game. There are adventure ideas as well.

Savage Worlds has a Solomon Kane game that is set in the 1590's, very close to what you are looking for.

7th Sea, The mythical setting of Theah is modeled after 16th and 17th century Europe. Thereis a ton of shyt you can swipe from here, or even just play the game as-is.  There is magic, but it is low-key stuff.  Sorcery is rare. The collection of works is HUGE. 

I hope this helps you find what you need?

All of it is great material. I would also add Alatriste RPG, and 17th century minimalist, and there are others about that topic but are not that good or aren't available (Villa y Corte or En Garde!). I'll be checking out LOTFP and the D&D module. Thanks

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2021, 03:38:49 PM
Greetings!

Yes, running Historical Campaigns--or even fantasy campaigns with strong historical elements--can be a project. Such a campaign can be a project for the DM, with lots of reading, and considerable preparation of notes, creating appropriate campaign aids, tables, and summaries. There is a substantial aspect of extra work beyond the typical "Disney D&D". THEN, of course, if the players are not historically literate--they are very likely to run face-first into a trainwreck of problems. Furthermore, even if they manage to avoid being swiftly killed, the trainwreck of problems and difficulties for such players can cascade into a seemingly daily struggle to survive--even when visiting a village or town. There can certainly be a "Cultural Learning Curve" involved.

SHARK

What frustrates me the most is the fact that one takes time to do some research to pull off a decent setting but when the actual game comes the players are idiots who also don't give a single fuck and play "medieval europe but with pistols xDD" and slap a noble across the face because "that's what my character would do xDDD :v" . It's very frustrating to prepare a nice setting for people who can't appreciate it. I don't blame them, but it is underwhelming anyway.

QuoteSo the best thing is to come up with a few bullet points that are key which you can then hammer home early and repeatedly, mixed with some rules, equipment, etc. that will reinforce those points.

Terrific advice.

Question for everyone: How would you summarize your favourite historical period in a few bullet points?

How much magic and fantastical elements is too much for a historical setting?

Greetings!

I completely sympathize, my friend. I have been fortunate to usually have well-read, well-educated players. Even with some players that had less precise or formal education have been passionate in being self-educated, often being nuts about Ren Faires, historical culture, mythology, and folklore. Most have all been swift to adjust their playing and expectations after having a "Session Zero/Introduction session". There have been a few, however, that have had the common sense of a bucket of sand. Such players typically soon experience their characters being burned at the stake, or cut down by Town Militia, or sentenced by a Magistrate and promptly hung from a tall tree. Some have been pursued by town mobs, and just beaten into mush. I always suggest that the DM should be harsh, brutal, and ruthless. Make sure that the smug player's arrogance, insults, and crimes are punished severely. I sometimes include a jackass NPC that can often act in similar ways to stupid or careless or arrogant players--whereupon the jackass NPC is made into an object lesson. Or maybe a group of uppity rebels in the town, or foreign barbarians, believing they can strut their arrogance and pride with impunity. The party seeing such figures be swiftly cut down in a duel with a grim nobleman, or hammered by the local wheels of authority in some suitable fashion often drives home the point that they need to pay fucking attention if they want to survive.

It doesn't matter if the environment is a Dark Ages Britain, Spain, Viking Norse, medieval Slavs, Imperial China, or somewhere in between. You start adding in historical inspiration, in an effort to get away from the "Seattle 2021 D&D"--and any of these environments can become lethal hell holes of judgment and damnation really quickly, before the party ever gets out beyond the town gates. Most players respond favourably, because for one, it actually is new, fresh, and interesting. Secondly, unlike "Seattle 2021 D&D"--the town or city environment also becomes challenging, in its own ways. Social class and status become important. How you address different people can make the difference between making a friend, or swinging from a rope. How they *DRESS* becomes important and meaningful. In some cultures, only certain people are allowed to wear certain styles of clothing, or certain colours. Going armed, unarmed, or lightly armed, and *HOW* can become important socially. The languages that the player characters can speak can also be immensely important. And yes, what religion different characters are can influence whether they are accommodated in a decent Inn, or offered the stable or a barn to sleep in--and much more. Religion in many places is *HUGELY IMPORTANT*. These different kinds of cultural urban environments can be very challenging and entertaining for players, and such environments can keep the players plenty busy with socialization, romances, politics, shopping, dances, parties, urban adventures, and more.

I sometimes have had the group after several urban sessions beg for some expedition deep into the wilderness with a monster-filled dungeon--saying such would be less stressful and safer than swimming in the adventures of an urban cesspool, ruthless politics, and dangerous romances!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I think playing an rpg specifically designed around a particular historical setting can help players get buy-in into the game and the settings peculiar weirdness (weirdness by modern perceptions).

You can't just take D&D and do an African inspired setting... That's what Spears of the Dawn is for.

If you want to play Arthurian/Dark Ages Britain then consider Pendragon, Wolves of God, or Mythic: Britain.

If you want a historical medieval Spain game check out Aquelarre. Unfortunately it seems the only books that already got translated to English will be the only ones we get.

I think part of the struggle is so many people get their rpg start with D&D and D&D teaches players a lot if really bad habits. They get so used to how D&D does things that they take that into every other rpg they try, quite often with negative results.

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2021, 08:50:08 PM

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 31, 2021, 07:50:45 PM
What frustrates me the most is the fact that one takes time to do some research to pull off a decent setting but when the actual game comes the players are idiots who also don't give a single fuck and play "medieval europe but with pistols xDD" and slap a noble across the face because "that's what my character would do xDDD :v" . It's very frustrating to prepare a nice setting for people who can't appreciate it. I don't blame them, but it is underwhelming anyway.

It doesn't matter if the environment is a Dark Ages Britain, Spain, Viking Norse, medieval Slavs, Imperial China, or somewhere in between. You start adding in historical inspiration, in an effort to get away from the "Seattle 2021 D&D"--and any of these environments can become lethal hell holes of judgment and damnation really quickly, before the party ever gets out beyond the town gates. Most players respond favourably, because for one, it actually is new, fresh, and interesting. Secondly, unlike "Seattle 2021 D&D"--the town or city environment also becomes challenging, in its own ways. Social class and status become important. How you address different people can make the difference between making a friend, or swinging from a rope. How they *DRESS* becomes important and meaningful.

When I'm running historical or pseudo-historical games, I usually make sure that the PCs are from highly respected families or otherwise have solid positions of respect like an important patron or similar. In almost any historical society, being a complete stranger of no rank almost always sucked, and it's a rough way to game. The D&D default is homeless wandering stranger with a bunch of coin -- but that's a poor fit for historical settings, in my opinion, bordering on unplayable in many cases.

So, for example, when I ran my Vikings & Skraelings game, most of the PCs were scions of a successful homestead. When I ran my 1860s pulp Korea game, the PCs were from the most prominent families in eastern Jeju.

If a noble from a respected family acts like a complete idiot, they lose respect - but it's a long way to being hung from a rope.