Quote from: Baulderstone;976077The adventures for WFRP, excellent though many of them are, have almost no awareness of the career system either. They assume you have a typical party of wandering vagabonds.

Yeah, the various Enemy Within episodes could have been better at detailing good career options and trainers.

Quote from: CRKrueger;976093With a career system based on societal roles and professions, you can't really deal with advancement without integrating it unless you just handwave the whole thing and move on.

Having not played much in Glorantha... is it much different regarding the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to? I know RQ6 had something about the amount of time a PC has to devote to the temple once they get to a certain level within the group... but do GMs use that as adventure fodder or just handwave it?
 
How often do D&D 'clerics' end up running errands for their higher-ups? Worshipping? Proselytizing? Building new shrines/temples?
I always liked the idea of wizards having to seek out their spells and components... but that stuff usually gets waived as well. Nobody is really interested in doing the work portion of their profession it seems (though I've done all those things in games... so I know it happens now and then).

Quote from: Simlasa;976102Having not played much in Glorantha... is it much different regarding the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to? I know RQ6 had something about the amount of time a PC has to devote to the temple once they get to a certain level within the group... but do GMs use that as adventure fodder or just handwave it?
 
How often do D&D 'clerics' end up running errands for their higher-ups? Worshipping? Proselytizing? Building new shrines/temples?
I always liked the idea of wizards having to seek out their spells and components... but that stuff usually gets waived as well. Nobody is really interested in doing the work portion of their profession it seems (though I've done all those things in games... so I know it happens now and then).

In Glorantha, I wouldn't know first-hand, but I've seen plenty of people talk about playing all that to the hilt at their tables, like in-game years to hit the top ranks.

In WFRP, I certainly played a lot of it with the various Religions, Templar Orders, Knightly Orders, Wizard Colleges, Merchant Guilds, etc.  Staying well-connected and keeping that status up wasn't easy.

In D&D, in depended greatly on the setting, but generally a lot of clerics were members of Itinerant, Mendicant, Proselytizing or Crusading Orders, who as "Adventuring Priests" were usually subject to a different hierarchy than the Temple Priests.  That made for lots of great political drama at times, as well as crises of faith for players when despite all they're done for their god, they still have to listen to a glorified bookkeeper/librarian who got his position by rising within the church, not slaying his god's enemies...and sometimes they found the God sided with that glorified book-keeper (aka the High Priest of the Faith's main church).  I found adventuring priests and paladins extremely subject to hubris...especially when they start directly and successfully interfering in the plans of Demon Lords.

Quote from: Simlasa;976102Having not played much in Glorantha... is it much different regarding the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to? I know RQ6 had something about the amount of time a PC has to devote to the temple once they get to a certain level within the group... but do GMs use that as adventure fodder or just handwave it?

Basically, as I read it, it's pretty impossible to make your way in the world of Glorantha, in terms of character development, without being part of a Cult or Guild or whatever. They teach all the spells and skills and whatnot, and are the ones who give you a leg up at the start of your career...in return for your devotion to their cause. In a similar vein to Traveller, who start the game with a mortgage on a ship they have to pay off, your beginning characters in RuneQuest also start off with a debt to a Cult. By the time they pay off this debt, they are already well on the ladder of that particular Cult's pathway towards advancement anyway.

Quote from: Simlasa;976102Having not played much in Glorantha... is it much different regarding the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to? I know RQ6 had something about the amount of time a PC has to devote to the temple once they get to a certain level within the group... but do GMs use that as adventure fodder or just handwave it?
 
How often do D&D 'clerics' end up running errands for their higher-ups? Worshipping? Proselytizing? Building new shrines/temples?
I always liked the idea of wizards having to seek out their spells and components... but that stuff usually gets waived as well. Nobody is really interested in doing the work portion of their profession it seems (though I've done all those things in games... so I know it happens now and then).

The cycle of adventure --> treasure --> dealing with cults/temples/priests --> improving character is tied together rather elegantly in RuneQuest. (At least in RQ2, which is the only edition I have read.)

Years ago several posters at Story Games laid out the cycle of RuneQuest play. A poster named epweissengruber summed up the conversation like this:


The character advancement cycle works like this:

GM presents challenge >> Players overcome it >> skills improve as they are used successfully >> conflicts allow characters to collect COIN (which I will use for cash, treasure, valuable objects, or adventurer-created outcomes that will be rewarded in coin or which have cash value (like freeing a captive) >> characters take things and buy improvement from communities

That's a very simplified version of it. But to become a really advanced and capable character you must take this path:
Adventurer1.0 overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer1.0 buys improvements from generic organization (e.g. Thieves' Guild) >> Adventurer1.1 (the upgrade) overcomes challenge for COIN >> Adventurer1.1 approaches cult for particular skills and battle magic >> Adventurer 1.2 overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer1.2 joins cult for really specialized skills and potent magic>> Adventurer2.0 (an initiate) overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer2.0 commits to cult and can borrow Rune Magic >> Adventurer3.0 (a devotee) overcomes challenge for COIN >> Adventurer3.0 becomes a Rune Lord or a Rune Priest with access to divine gifts and stupendous Rune Magic

You can get slow skill increase through use but to get anywhere, and to get really cool skills, you have to engage with cults and temples. Gaining skills and treasure is just the first step to character advancement.

What is the reward cycle?

Players overcome GM challenges >> They have interesting interactions with the Gloranthan world and people >> they associate their characters with fictional agents (from animal to the divine) >> they gain power from and responsibility to those GM-controlled fictional agents (cults, communities, gods) >> they work to have their characters become shapers of Glorantha themselves.

This is not the approach of anygame. It's not even the approach for all BRP systems (Call of Cthulhu, Mongoose's genericized versions). It's for running that lovely little game I have carried around for the better part of 3 decades. It is also the product of someone who has realized this with the benefit of hindsight and sporadic and disappointing engagement with the game. Ignoring the logical implications of the character advancement cycle and the implicit reward cycle will lead to heartbreak.

You can play Runequest like anygame.

But the rules, the beautiful supplements (Cults of Prax, The Big Rubble, Borderlands, Griffin Mountain) all depend on this framework, and the legendary campaigns discussed on fora etc. grew out of it, consciously or not.

The reward cycle involves challenge but involves so much more: exploring, interacting with, and shaping a detailed a consistent fictional construct called Glorantha. And doing it better than Stafford or Perrin did -- if you can.

You don't have to know all of Stafford's fictional world to play the game. Look at the text: there are 2 cults and models and a description of 1 or 2 guilds. All you need is to do as Johnstone suggests: make a map with neat spots. Now come up with 2 positive cults, 2 weird cults, and 2 evil cults for your bad guys to worship. Make up details about initiation and Rune Lord/Priest status as needed for your characters. Put their temples on your map and bang! Your players can choose to react with those however they wish. Let them set goals in this fictional space. Do NOT have the temple of truth COMMAND them what to do. Religion and magic are ways to advance characters and have fun NOT for the GM to railroad.

"That fits with many of the other things included in the game--especially a cool two page map of the Kingdoms of Sartar and Prax which, although not on a hex grid, is exactly right for exploration style adventures. "

Exactly. This is all you need. Look at that 2 Page History of Glorantha! That is all you need to set up a little campaign space and make an adventure area as Johnstone suggests. Look at the runes. All you have to do is look at the rune as say "humh, what rune-related stuff is there?" or "what opposing rune would want to mess around there" or "what would this guy way over here find of interest in this opposing rune way over here?"

1. Look over the character sheets and make note of their skills.
- set challenges high to make advancement hard
- set challenges low to speed up skill advancement
- given them communities there to help them advance their favoured skills IF they do such and such or IF they will join up. But give choices.

2. Treasure. So maybe there's loot hoards in monster-infested dungeons, or maybe there's just financial rewards for being a judicial champion or recovering falcons.
- financial rewards are all you need for the game mechanics
- to reinforce the fiction have communities approach them for their good deeds OR have opposing communities take them to task
- at least have the characters see the responses to their actions -- you don't always have to present them with drama every time they take an action

3. "The chance to die," of course means danger.
- Or crippling! Beginning characters in Runequest are fragile. Limbs get chomped all of the time.
- That means that characters need help from communities/organizations/temples/guilds. You want healing spells, you have to make nice with the healer cults, and make big contributions if you want resurrections. You need to get relics that contain healing spells and into which you can devote your personal power. (The idea that you project your own personal drives into magical items is very close to the psycho-anthropology of magic).
- To have real heroes there has to be real danger. Keep death meaningful in Runequest.

4. This usually goes without saying, but I like that it's called out in the text. Put in fun stuff! Try to make exploring this map and pursuing treasures and other opportunities as fun and exciting as possible.
- And meaningful.
- And hooked to reward and advancement.
- Advancement: skill use possibilities, items of special interest to temples and guilds that could get you skills and spells, COIN
- Reward: seeing your character get to use specialized skills successfully, interacting with allied magical powers (followers of the god of principles that the character follows), interacting with enemy magical/mythical forces, and CHANGING Glorantha. That can include participating in initiation ceremonies, undertaking the great challenges that one must pass in order to rise to higher levels like devotee, Rune Lord, and Priest.

Do all of this on your own. Do NOT try to wade through Gloranthaphilia to get your answers. Make stuff that will engage players. And provide POSSIBLE routes of progress, not railroads.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;976378The cycle of adventure --> treasure --> dealing with cults/temples/priests --> improving character is tied together rather elegantly in RuneQuest. (At least in RQ2, which is the only edition I have read.)

Years ago several posters at Story Games laid out the cycle of RuneQuest play. A poster named epweissengruber summed up the conversation like this:


The character advancement cycle works like this:

GM presents challenge >> Players overcome it >> skills improve as they are used successfully >> conflicts allow characters to collect COIN (which I will use for cash, treasure, valuable objects, or adventurer-created outcomes that will be rewarded in coin or which have cash value (like freeing a captive) >> characters take things and buy improvement from communities

That's a very simplified version of it. But to become a really advanced and capable character you must take this path:
Adventurer1.0 overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer1.0 buys improvements from generic organization (e.g. Thieves' Guild) >> Adventurer1.1 (the upgrade) overcomes challenge for COIN >> Adventurer1.1 approaches cult for particular skills and battle magic >> Adventurer 1.2 overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer1.2 joins cult for really specialized skills and potent magic>> Adventurer2.0 (an initiate) overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer2.0 commits to cult and can borrow Rune Magic >> Adventurer3.0 (a devotee) overcomes challenge for COIN >> Adventurer3.0 becomes a Rune Lord or a Rune Priest with access to divine gifts and stupendous Rune Magic

You can get slow skill increase through use but to get anywhere, and to get really cool skills, you have to engage with cults and temples. Gaining skills and treasure is just the first step to character advancement.

What is the reward cycle?

Players overcome GM challenges >> They have interesting interactions with the Gloranthan world and people >> they associate their characters with fictional agents (from animal to the divine) >> they gain power from and responsibility to those GM-controlled fictional agents (cults, communities, gods) >> they work to have their characters become shapers of Glorantha themselves.

This is not the approach of anygame. It's not even the approach for all BRP systems (Call of Cthulhu, Mongoose's genericized versions). It's for running that lovely little game I have carried around for the better part of 3 decades. It is also the product of someone who has realized this with the benefit of hindsight and sporadic and disappointing engagement with the game. Ignoring the logical implications of the character advancement cycle and the implicit reward cycle will lead to heartbreak.

You can play Runequest like anygame.

But the rules, the beautiful supplements (Cults of Prax, The Big Rubble, Borderlands, Griffin Mountain) all depend on this framework, and the legendary campaigns discussed on fora etc. grew out of it, consciously or not.

The reward cycle involves challenge but involves so much more: exploring, interacting with, and shaping a detailed a consistent fictional construct called Glorantha. And doing it better than Stafford or Perrin did -- if you can.

You don't have to know all of Stafford's fictional world to play the game. Look at the text: there are 2 cults and models and a description of 1 or 2 guilds. All you need is to do as Johnstone suggests: make a map with neat spots. Now come up with 2 positive cults, 2 weird cults, and 2 evil cults for your bad guys to worship. Make up details about initiation and Rune Lord/Priest status as needed for your characters. Put their temples on your map and bang! Your players can choose to react with those however they wish. Let them set goals in this fictional space. Do NOT have the temple of truth COMMAND them what to do. Religion and magic are ways to advance characters and have fun NOT for the GM to railroad.

"That fits with many of the other things included in the game--especially a cool two page map of the Kingdoms of Sartar and Prax which, although not on a hex grid, is exactly right for exploration style adventures. "

Exactly. This is all you need. Look at that 2 Page History of Glorantha! That is all you need to set up a little campaign space and make an adventure area as Johnstone suggests. Look at the runes. All you have to do is look at the rune as say "humh, what rune-related stuff is there?" or "what opposing rune would want to mess around there" or "what would this guy way over here find of interest in this opposing rune way over here?"

1. Look over the character sheets and make note of their skills.
- set challenges high to make advancement hard
- set challenges low to speed up skill advancement
- given them communities there to help them advance their favoured skills IF they do such and such or IF they will join up. But give choices.

2. Treasure. So maybe there's loot hoards in monster-infested dungeons, or maybe there's just financial rewards for being a judicial champion or recovering falcons.
- financial rewards are all you need for the game mechanics
- to reinforce the fiction have communities approach them for their good deeds OR have opposing communities take them to task
- at least have the characters see the responses to their actions -- you don't always have to present them with drama every time they take an action

3. "The chance to die," of course means danger.
- Or crippling! Beginning characters in Runequest are fragile. Limbs get chomped all of the time.
- That means that characters need help from communities/organizations/temples/guilds. You want healing spells, you have to make nice with the healer cults, and make big contributions if you want resurrections. You need to get relics that contain healing spells and into which you can devote your personal power. (The idea that you project your own personal drives into magical items is very close to the psycho-anthropology of magic).
- To have real heroes there has to be real danger. Keep death meaningful in Runequest.

4. This usually goes without saying, but I like that it's called out in the text. Put in fun stuff! Try to make exploring this map and pursuing treasures and other opportunities as fun and exciting as possible.
- And meaningful.
- And hooked to reward and advancement.
- Advancement: skill use possibilities, items of special interest to temples and guilds that could get you skills and spells, COIN
- Reward: seeing your character get to use specialized skills successfully, interacting with allied magical powers (followers of the god of principles that the character follows), interacting with enemy magical/mythical forces, and CHANGING Glorantha. That can include participating in initiation ceremonies, undertaking the great challenges that one must pass in order to rise to higher levels like devotee, Rune Lord, and Priest.

Do all of this on your own. Do NOT try to wade through Gloranthaphilia to get your answers. Make stuff that will engage players. And provide POSSIBLE routes of progress, not railroads.

Hate to burst the bubble of Gloranthaphiles, but really, that's just describing a good campaign in general.  Sure, it has mechanical enforcement (way to advance, cult requirements, more lethal combat), but what that guy describes is how we played D&D back in the day.  You can't really have a World in Motion without it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;976408Hate to burst the bubble of Gloranthaphiles, but really, that's just describing a good campaign in general.  Sure, it has mechanical enforcement (way to advance, cult requirements, more lethal combat), but what that guy describes is how we played D&D back in the day.  You can't really have a World in Motion without it.

I don't think there are any bubbles to be burst. And if you feel the need to be the bearer of really special wisdom, awesome.

But the fact remains that this:

Quote"Adventurer1.1 approaches cult for particular skills and battle magic >> Adventurer 1.2 overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer1.2 joins cult for really specialized skills and potent magic>> Adventurer2.0 (an initiate) overcomes conflict for COIN >> Adventurer2.0 commits to cult and can borrow Rune Magic >> Adventurer3.0 (a devotee) overcomes challenge for COIN >> Adventurer3.0 becomes a Rune Lord or a Rune Priest with access to divine gifts and stupendous Rune Magic"

...is specific to RuneQuest 2, and, as you say is "mechanical reinforcement" of "the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to." Which has been the very point under consideration of the last few posts.

The larger portion of the post is a breakdown of the GM advice toward the back of RQ2:

Quote"An adventure area, whether it be a section of forest, cave, old ruin, river etc. should provide the players with the following opportunities:
--experience in the use of his skills
--opportunity to obtain treasure and thereby purchase further training
--the chance to die in pursuit of the above
--enjoyment while doing all of the above"

In the Story-Games thread I linked to and quoted from Johnstone comments on that RQ2 GM advice for building adventures:

Quote"Huh. That sounds pretty close to the old-school open sandbox style of running games..."

So no one thought they had split the atom for the first time. (If anything the point of the S-G thread was about demystifying playing in the setting of Glorantha.)

So, as far as RQ2 goes, that which isn't novel isn't. That which is specific to RQ2 is. And...? I guess we can move on now? Or perhaps have three pages of immature insults about points that barely seem the trouble?

Quote from: Simlasa;976102Having not played much in Glorantha... is it much different regarding the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to?

The key difference is that in RuneQuest, you can pick a cult and stick with it over the long term. Advancing in a cult takes a long damn time. Your cult is a steady connection to the setting.

In WFRP, careers are relatively easy to max out. Unless you are on one of the few chained series of careers, like Wizard, your relationship with the institution related to your career is a fleeting thing before you ingratiate yourself into a new field. The mechanics provide the exact opposite attitude towards social mobility that the setting seems to imply.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;976378The cycle of adventure --> treasure --> dealing with cults/temples/priests --> improving character is tied together rather elegantly in RuneQuest. (At least in RQ2, which is the only edition I have read.)

Years ago several posters at Story Games laid out the cycle of RuneQuest play. A poster named epweissengruber summed up the conversation like this:


The character advancement cycle works like this:

GM presents challenge >> Players overcome it >> skills improve as they are used successfully >> conflicts allow characters to collect COIN (which I will use for cash, treasure, valuable objects, or adventurer-created outcomes that will be rewarded in coin or which have cash value (like freeing a captive) >> characters take things and buy improvement from communities

....

Do all of this on your own. Do NOT try to wade through Gloranthaphilia to get your answers. Make stuff that will engage players. And provide POSSIBLE routes of progress, not railroads.

Excellent overview. My longest running RQ campaign may not have followed that cycle exactly, but the gist of it sure is on target.

There was a time when I went hogwild on acquiring Glorantha materials. And then I tried to run a campaign, and got lost in them. Now many of those have either been sold or are in my for sale bin...

I have long maintained that the most important supplement is Cults of Prax. As Christopher mentions, you can make up your own cults, but CoP has so much good stuff in it. I personally never really absorbed much of the fluff text, going straight for the mechanics of the cults. Cults of Terror is a nice bonus. After that, there are cool adventures (Apple Lane would actually be my 2nd favorite supplement before Cults of Terror). Some of the adventures can get railroady, if need be, ignore the adventure and just mine them for cool stuff.

Note that RQ3 (Avalon Hill) handles cults differently and I think broke some of the above cycle.

Frank

I think the key aspect of Runequest is community. While it's got it share of dungeon/wilderness crawls, and this is awesome, it also has built-in mechanisms to assure the group will eventually integrate with their community, in the form of Cults, because that's the true path to power. And once they do it, they will be inexorably linked to the duties such a post entails to community, protecting them and upholding their beliefs.

Because of this, I agree Cults of Prax together with Runequest 2 form the undiluted Runequest experience.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;976412I don't think there are any bubbles to be burst. And if you feel the need to be the bearer of really special wisdom, awesome.

But the fact remains that this:

...is specific to RuneQuest 2, and, as you say is "mechanical reinforcement" of "the interaction of PCs with the 'cults' they belong to." Which has been the very point under consideration of the last few posts.

The larger portion of the post is a breakdown of the GM advice toward the back of RQ2:


In the Story-Games thread I linked to and quoted from Johnstone comments on that RQ2 GM advice for building adventures:


So no one thought they had split the atom for the first time. (If anything the point of the S-G thread was about demystifying playing in the setting of Glorantha.)

So, as far as RQ2 goes, that which isn't novel isn't. That which is specific to RQ2 is. And...? I guess we can move on now? Or perhaps have three pages of immature insults about points that barely seem the trouble?

Uh, maybe if you feel the need to, you're obviously mighty riled about something, so feel free to move on to whatever sets the world to rights, brother.  I was just pointing out that setting social structures that PCs are motivated to interact with are quite possible without overt mechanics, and simply by placing logical barriers to gaining knowledge, you end up with much the same cycle as the "Glorantha Cycle".  Even something like AD&D's various costs and training rules gets you there with a good GM.  

My current system of choice is Mythras which has all the Runequest structures in place, and I use them, but other than a more strictly defined hierarchy for casters, etc, my players aren't doing anything all that different than they did in AD&D or even Shadowrun when it comes to interacting with the social structures of the setting.

The uniqueness of RQ/Glorantha doesn't lie in what they did, but how.  By consistently showing how to express a setting using the RQ rules, many of the supplements, taken together, form a masterclass in worldbuilding and setting verisimilitude.

Quote from: Baulderstone;976413The key difference is that in RuneQuest, you can pick a cult and stick with it over the long term. Advancing in a cult takes a long damn time. Your cult is a steady connection to the setting.

My question was aimed more at how much in-game time cult affairs took up... as opposed to being something taken care of during hand-waved 'down time' between sessions.
It seems like it really depends on who is playing it... rather than Runequest cults intentionally/specifically generating mission-based play or something. Which is the same impression I get from Mythras and lots of other games with well defined factions/settings.

Quote from: CRKrueger;976524[snip]...Even something like AD&D's various costs and training rules gets you there with a good GM.

Throw in titles, land rewards, and stronghold/church/tower building and you really tie the PCs to the community and it can grow around them as they grow. Soon you can have adventures based on political in-fighting, espionage, etc. I always thought D&D was perfect for this and nearly every early edition had some rules and suggestions along these lines.

AD&D had suggestions but it was all rather vaguely defined. BECMI had it much more explictly worked out, even if it was a bit wonky in places.

Sorry, double post.