So we have a variety of BRP-derived games out there, all of which use SIZ. Out of those, which ones do you use in your campaign. For example, in the RQ system you use, what is the SIZ of a heavy warhorse?
Counter-intuitively, it is better to think of SIZ in terms of body mass, or weight, rather than the actual height of the creature.
This table of RuneQuest 3 shows the relative correspondence of SIZ (Taille, or TAI, in French) scores and weights, in Kg:
(http://enrill.net/documents/scans/TAI-Kg-values.jpg)
Now, this wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#Size_and_measurement) tells you about the average size and measurements of different types of horses. Large riding horses are usually weighing 500-600 Kg, so around SIZ 34-37. Heavy or draft horses could weigh anywhere between 700 to 1,000 Kg, so a SIZ of 38-42.
Now, a Unicorn in RuneQuest 3 has a SIZ of 2d6+18, and shows a usual value of 25 (dude, that is like... a SUPER light horse). Using this kind of formula, a large riding horse could have a SIZ of 2d6+28, with an average of 36, and a heavy/draft horse a SIZ of 2d6+34, average of 40.
Quote from: Benoist;436364Counter-intuitively, it is better to think of SIZ in terms of body mass, rather than the actual height of the creature.
This table of RuneQuest 3 shows the relative correspondence of SIZ score and what it means in terms of weight, in Kg:
Now, this wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#Size_and_measurement) tells you about the average size and measurements of different types of horses. Large riding horses are usually weighing 500-600 Kg, so around SIZ 34-37. Heavy or draft horses could weigh anywhere between 700 to 1,000 Kg, so a SIZ of 38-42.
Now, a Unicorn in RuneQuest 3 has a SIZ of 2d6+18, and shows a usual value of 25 (dude, that is like... a SUPER light horse). Using this kind of formula, a large riding horse could have a SIZ of 2d6+28, with an average of 36, and a heavy/draft horse a SIZ of 2d6+34, average of 40.
Yeah, that's the problem I'm having looking at the two systems I have (Gold cover BRP and MRQI/MRQII), I'd like to go with a non-linear mass scale like you posted, but then some simple math (like with the horse) leaves me redoing a lot of animals.
So when you run AHRQ3, are warhorses going to be SIZ 40ish?
Yeah, I'd go with that sort of reasoning. :)
PS: looking at it more thoroughly, comparing with other types of creatures, it looks to me like the direct weight/SIZ equivalence would be a tad exaggerated, actually. I would still start with this reasoning, which is sound, but I'd probably make it so that the SIZ range for a heavy warhorse is more around 30ish than 40ish. This table here is only useful as far as dead weight is concerned (particularly when you're trying to lift/move the stuff with your own SIZ/STR in oppositions), so it's always subject to fine tuning.
Quote from: CRKrueger;436327So we have a variety of BRP-derived games out there, all of which use SIZ. Out of those, which ones do you use in your campaign. For example, in the RQ system you use, what is the SIZ of a heavy warhorse?
Its good to remember that historically horses were smaller than todays types and breeds. There is some debate among historians about the size of actual war horses*.
The SIZ of a heavy warhorse does not seem to vary over much from system to system.
- Chaosium's games BRP, CoC, RQ2 have Horses at average SIZ 26 (+2 War Horse)
- MRQII and OQ have horses at average SIZ 25 (+4 War Horses)
Over the years I have seen quite a few tables and methods of determining SIZ.
Atgxtg's
Corrected and Expanded SIZ Table (http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/76/exapandedandadjustedsiz.png) from BRP Central is well respected. It appears to be similar to the RQ3 table Benoist posted.
-Hans
*See Clark, "Introduction", Medieval Horse, pp. 22–27 and Prestwich, Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages, p. 30.
Ha. So we're coming to a consensus here. Put SIZ 30 for a warhorse and call it quits. :)
Quote from: Benoist;436364Now, a Unicorn in RuneQuest 3 has a SIZ of 2d6+18, and shows a usual value of 25 (dude, that is like... a SUPER light horse). Using this kind of formula, a large riding horse could have a SIZ of 2d6+28, with an average of 36, and a heavy/draft horse a SIZ of 2d6+34, average of 40.
Historically Unicorns seemed to have almost in much in common with goats as they did with horses...you could then think of a Unicorn as a
very large goat!
I've always wanted a proportionate relationship between SIZ and kg, but I've only got one that works within the human range. There, it's that each point of SIZ represents between 1 stone (6.35 kg) and 7.5 kg. That works fine until you start trying to deal with horses, etc. and is reasonably good for generating human weight ranges.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;436589I've always wanted a proportionate relationship between SIZ and kg, but I've only got one that works within the human range. There, it's that each point of SIZ represents between 1 stone (6.35 kg) and 7.5 kg. That works fine until you start trying to deal with horses, etc. and is reasonably good for generating human weight ranges.
Which reminds me.
In discussions about the SIZ characteristic someone usually brings up the desiccated undead... So, in keeping with some RQ tradition and as a reminder of how straightforward SIZ is not. :)
Skeletons and
living humans have the same SIZ.
- (Coc, MRQII, BRP) avg. Skeleton & Human SIZ 13
- (RQ2) avg. Skeleton & Human SIZ 10-11
-Hans
Quote from: hanszurcher;436887In discussions about the SIZ characteristic someone usually brings the desiccated undead up... So, in keeping with some RQ tradition and as a reminder of how straightforward SIZ is not. :)
Skeletons and living humans have the same SIZ.
- (Coc, MRQII, BRP) avg. Skeleton & Human SIZ 13
- (RQ2) avg. Skeleton & Human SIZ 10-11
-Hans
Whisper it quietly, but SIZ doesn't really work as an accurate physical model of the world. It's OK if you treat it as something of an abstraction and a more fine-grained way of assigning damage bonuses. Personally I suspect that if SIZ hadn't been in RQ at the beginning and then someone tried to put it in later, they would be laughed out of court.
That said, as a quick and dirty number range for roughly humanoid creatures it works just fine as a game mechanic. As an accurate mechanic for measuring mass, no. E.g. if you assign SIZ to a measure of mass then you run into the square/cube volume which is roughly that the power of a muscle is based on area but mass is based on volume. The SIZ chart above is an exponential chart (I think it was something like log base e hence the rough +8 SIZ equals doubling of mass - my maths is not what it was). If however STR is assumed to be able to lift an equal amount of SIZ then you get a massive over rating of STR.
All in all best to let sleeping large things lie.
Quote from: hanszurcher;436887- (Coc, MRQII, BRP) avg. Skeleton & Human SIZ 13
- (RQ2) avg. Skeleton & Human SIZ 10-11
Heh. First time I see this argument personally. Interesting!
is there anywhere i can get Atgxtg's expanded size table? the links in the thread don't work.
Did the AH version do anything different with stuff like that? I have the Basic box set.
Quote from: CRKrueger;436327So we have a variety of BRP-derived games out there, all of which use SIZ. Out of those, which ones do you use in your campaign. For example, in the RQ system you use, what is the SIZ of a heavy warhorse?
I liked the RQ3 SIZ table, as it seemed to work really well.
The main problem with SIZ is that it works for human-sized creatures but breaks down at higher levels.
The main concept is that, for human-sized creatures, 1 SIZ = 1 Stone (14lbs, or 6kg) and this works well, up to Troll Sized.
However, beyond that it breaks down, eventually quite seriously. There are two general approaches that could be taken - Keep the 1 SIZ = 1 Stone and just convert Mass into SIZ, or use larger and larger weight ranges for increased SIZ. Both approaches have their own problems.
Keep the 1 SIZ = 1 Stone and just convert Mass into SIZ - You get into silly figures with SIZ, very quickly. So, elephants can grow to be 6000kg, which equates to SIZ 100, which is clearly unmanageable.
Use larger and larger weight ranges for increased SIZ - At higher levels, an increase of +1 SIZ might equate to +100kg, or even more, which is a problem when you have a Spell that can lift 20 SIZ and you want to equate that to Kg. Do you turn SIZ into Kg and work out the strength of the spell, or do you just use SIZ? What abpout a spell that carries a large mount and small rider, do you work out the rider's mass and add to the mount's to get the combined SIZ? It gets complicated.
Another issue with SIZ is that it doesn't really work with height and mass. Do short, fat creatures have the same SIZ as tall, thin creatures? Stormbringer neatly got around this by having different body types, so you could have a slim, normal, stout and fat body types, so a slim type and a stout type with the same SIZ had different height and weight ranges.