Quote from: migo on April 24, 2022, 06:57:17 PM
That only works if you already know how to play D&D. It's not a complete system.

Pretty sure you were replying about Searchers of the Unknown. If not, my apologies.

I think you and I are in agreement. Most people need a working knowledge of D&D/TTRPGs to really leverage rules lite games. Anecdotally, I have seen new players/DMs struggle when starting out with them. I believe new players benefit from something more complete to stimulate the imagination.

While you would need to red line a few rooms/obstacles tied to ability scores, the namesake module B1 is fantastic. With the DM advice given in the module, coupled with the need to key the dungeon, it is a pretty complete package for someone new. With the right module, or a DM with experience, I do think Searchers is complete. So we may differ there a little.

However, and I have asked this of other rules lite games, such as Into the Odd...has anyone actually played a long-term campaign?

QuoteI believe new players benefit from something more complete to stimulate the imagination.

Yes. I think one of the strengths of class and race based games is as you're reading up the race and class descriptions, you're already learning something about the world. When you read that a Cleric has 'turn undead', you learn that there are undead in the game, and more specifically zombies, skeletons, ghouls, ghasts, wights, wraiths, vampires, ghosts and liches. When you read that a Ranger has an attack and damage bonus against giants, ogres, trolls, goblins, hobgoblins and orcs, you learn there are those kind of monsters that you'll be facing.

It's an example of show, don't tell.

Barbarians of Lemuria is about as light as I like to go, I like the death metal vibe of Mork Borg but it is indeed to light to be of any real use as a game system in my opinion.

Tiny D6.

Quote from: Batjon on May 02, 2022, 08:05:30 PM
Tiny D6.

I'm still waiting for Mecha vs Monsters: Evolved.  The kickstarter was updated on April 28, but still no commercial PDF to buy. 

I backed it and have the PDF.  It actually looks amazing.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 02, 2022, 09:28:52 PM

Quote from: Batjon on May 02, 2022, 08:05:30 PM
Tiny D6.

I'm still waiting for Mecha vs Monsters: Evolved.  The kickstarter was updated on April 28, but still no commercial PDF to buy.

I'm just hoping that Mecha vs Monsters Evolved now includes an experience advancement system. 

Yup, 1st edition was just pilots and mechs.  You never got better characters.  You could fudge this using Tiny Frontiers spaceship game and borrow that, but it's not in Mecha vs Monsters.

The base mechanic for Amber Diceless is pretty simple and if one would strip away a lot of Zelazny's setting material the rules could be very short.

I love OD&D and think it's pretty rules lite overall, especially if the supplements are ignored. Someone mentioned B/X and that is probably a better example than OD&D simply because it's organized better.

I find that if too much is stripped away I don't have much long-term interest in a game. It has to have elements which can be acquired as characters advance, and anything less than that only works for one-shots in my experience

Quote from: finarvyn on May 04, 2022, 08:49:31 AM
The base mechanic for Amber Diceless is pretty simple and if one would strip away a lot of Zelazny's setting material the rules could be very short.

I love OD&D and think it's pretty rules lite overall, especially if the supplements are ignored. Someone mentioned B/X and that is probably a better example than OD&D simply because it's organized better.

I find that if too much is stripped away I don't have much long-term interest in a game. It has to have elements which can be acquired as characters advance, and anything less than that only works for one-shots in my experience

I mentioned Basic Fantasy, which is essentially B/X D&D with a few modern fixes.  Mainly ascending armor class, and races are separate from classes.  Aka, an elf is not a class in its own right.

It's a really good deal.   It has to be.  It's FREE.   Even the paper books are printed at cost, so the main rulebook is only $5.  Shipping will cost more. 

It might be considered rules lite by some people, but I feel it's a traditional, full sized game.  Just a simpler one. 

https://www.basicfantasy.org/

Yeah, I wouldn't consider Basic Fantasy to be rules lite.

This discussion has me pondering, is a universal resolution mechanic with modifiers too rules lite? Does the game need player and GM options to make it more engaging?

I haven't done too many rules-lite games. I've read some of the PbtA and find them to be lacking for my play style. Also, with all the codified "moves" it seems less "lite" and more regimented.

A game like Savage Worlds has a pretty simple base mechanic, but all the options available maybe pushes it to rules medium?

On the other extreme, a game like Shadowrun, with really whats a basic mechanic (Stat+Skill dice pool) goes too far with a sub system for just about everything.

I personally lean towards Savage Worlds OSR, or percentile systems as the Goldilocks zone for me.

"Rules lite games that are to lite?"
We haven't directly explored the "too lite" for what question? There are games that aren't meant for long-term campaign play. A few people seem to have used this as there definition.

There's nothing wrong with having games that are very focused and zoom in on a very particular theme, that are only meant for a one-shot. Or are meant for short campaigns of say 6-12 sessions.

Some PbtA games fall into this bucket. I think FATE often does too, but I don't think it has too (I've only done one-shots of both of these engines though.) Here's some other interesting examples:

Widdershins is a game about lost toys that have come to life. It's 33 pages, has some "gear" in terms of a key, tokens & relics, and rituals that character (widdershin) has. This is the main things one might gain too, there's no real advancement other than that. If I was running it, I'd probably expect to use the same characters for 3-5 sessions.

Vanagard is an RPG in a box (early mythological viking themed). There's 6 skills (talents) that you have on cards: chase, hunt, work, play, speak wise, lead. These also interact with futhark Runes in game play. After every session you'll likely gain a skill card, and now and then you'll gain the ability to draw more for your checks.
It works well for a one-shot, but I think the juice is in 5-8 sessions.
(rule book is ~20 page booklet, but the box also has "challenge" cards for example encounters you might have, chapter cards for inspiration—and the rune on the top, wooden runes in a bag, ~10 example starting characters.) I wrote a bit more about this one here with pictures.

I don't think either of these are "to lite", but neither are they intended as games you play every week for years i.e. long-term campaign play.

I got to play in about 14 sessions of my Simple Superheroes #0 game, which I would say is rules lite even thought the book clocks in at 112 pages (a big chunk is example allies & enemies). The big note is how much I and the rest of the players in that campaign were itching to keep going, and how much regularly getting to enhance or create new "talents" for our heroes helped feed into that. The GM moved away unfortunately.
A case could certainly be made that it's lite/medium and maybe it is, but the core is a framework for creating powers that I explain at cons all the time and people have characters in 20-30minutes (maybe 40 minutes if it's the last slot of a 3 day con.)
So this does work for long-term campaign play.

Someone said that a game using just a single 1D6 for all dice rolls is too lite.  I can see that, but I also posted originally with a game that I like which does exactly that.  It's a fun game, too.

I can even see an RPG based on just flipping coins for heads or tails.  Aka D2 dice.  Tiny D6 games can convert to this style with practically no changes at all.  You just have to flip two coins when at a disadvantage and get heads both time, just once for most situations, or twice when you have advantage and succeed if you get a single heads result.  The math is about the same.  33.3%, 50%, or 66.7%.  Compare this to getting a 33.3%, 55%, or 70% with rolling 5 or 6 with 1D6, 2D6, or 3D6, and it's comparable. 

Still, more dice options exist with the more dice types.  It also keeps it simple to just use dice types.

What I don't like are games that get creative with D6 dice to try and make a lot more results.  Often they get needlessly complex for little benefit.  I almost think those games were written to show off a unique dice mechanic first, and ease of use was ignored. 

Last handful of posts have asked a pretty good question. Too lite for what? Good context to have.

Generally speaking, my starting point is a game suitable for campaign play.

Quote from: FingerRod on May 06, 2022, 12:30:46 PM
Last handful of posts have asked a pretty good question. Too lite for what? Good context to have.

Generally speaking, my starting point is a game suitable for campaign play.

I think its a little more nuanced than that. While in general, a rules lite system is better for one shots, some people run pretty much straight up storytelling games as campaigns.

But I guess that bring up the question of what makes up a sustainable game? Is it the mechanics, or is it the players/GM? TBH, I think both are clearly a factor. A fun mechanic engages the players (Prime example: NAT 20) But a less dynamic game, with a good table can also be a ton of fun.