Quote from: Soylent Green;485239The thing about Basic D&D is it still contains a lot of stuff that could be streamlined. There is a lot of detail in some places, often in the form of ad-hoc rules and tables and huge gaps in other areas. Do We really need that many saves? Is there not a cleaner, more elegant way to do thief skills?

Wait, what?

Now you're just fucking with me, right?  

I prefer systems that consist (almost) entirely of bonuses. D&D 3.x has always bugged me that it takes fighters as the norm, and then penalizes everyone else. If I had a time machine, I'd change the -4 non-weapon proficiency to a +4 weapon proficiency and then I'd time travel some positive feedback to Ben Franklin.

I don't mind rules light games in play, but I find rules light character creation aggravating. I love having a lot of character creation content.

Quote from: Cranewings;485280I don't mind rules light games in play, but I find rules light character creation aggravating. I love having a lot of character creation content.

I do, too, but for a lot of new players, the character creation experience can be overwhelming, particularly in 3e/Pathfinder.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;485246I have never understood the resistance to the OD&D/AD&D etc. save system.

We had this discussion awhile back. It basically falls into two problems:

The first problem is the question of what you do for effects that fall into multiple categories. (IIRC, AD&D largely fixed this by setting up a hierarchy which cleared up most of the problems.)

The far larger problem, however, are the plethora of effects which don't fall anywhere on that list. About the only thing you can do at that point is scratch you head and... I dunno... try to figure out what sort of effect the situation most closely resembles? Or should I just start creating new categories of saves for these new effects? Just default to an attribute check?

In other words, the OD&D/AD&D system is incomplete.

What makes the 3E saving throw system unified/complete is that the combination of Reflex, Fortitude, and Will neatly cover the entire spectrum of saving throws in a generic fashion. I can use those generic structures to make specific rulings with a large degree of confidence and consistency.

Physically avoiding something, physically toughing something out, or mentally withstanding something isn't the only possible breakdown that would serve as a comprehensive, unified mechanic for saving throws. But it works.  

The proof is in the pudding: In a decade of playing 3E, I've never run into a situation where (a) a character needs to make a roll to avoid an effect, but (b) I can't use the existing saving throws as written. But this happens all the time when I'm playing OD&D; and it happened back when I played BECMI and 2E years before 3E existed, too.

And this isn't something unique to me: A quick perusal of old TSR modules will reveal that "make a save vs. some arbitrary category that has nothing to do with what's happening... I dunno... dragon breath? sure, let's go with dragon breath" happened all the time. Even Gygax does it.

Quote from: kryystWhy is it that so many people's verions of rules light come down to "Because I said so!"

The strength of rules light to me has always been about less rules providing for way more options. I just don't see the point in rules light because options are locked down.

Quote from: misterguignol;485227Can you give an example of this?

Sure, from the OP:

QuoteIn what I'm writing, you simply can't use them. So if the wizard says, "I want to wear plate armor," the rules say no because wizards don't wear plate armor.

Quote from: Soylent Green;485239The thing about Basic D&D is it still contains a lot of stuff that could be streamlined. There is a lot of detail in some places, often in the form of ad-hoc rules and tables and huge gaps in other areas. Do We really need that many saves? Is there not a cleaner, more elegant way to do thief skills?

Reverse Fantasy Heartbreaker time?

If you like rules light with lots of cool chargen options, check out a free RPG called Warrior Rogue & Mage...its got lots of cool free supplements too.

http://www.stargazergames.eu/games/warrior-rogue-mage/

I am writing a rules-light fantasy, but I am trying to balance freedom with flavor. One thing is for sure though, my Sorcerers can wear plate armor!

Isn't it just.

Mind you, I'm not sure I've ever done rules light. More rules medium, maybe. But I'm no fan of rules heavy, as I understand the term.

And there's the thing - I never did get a straight answer out of Ma Google as to which games fit in which categories.

Quote from: B.T.;485218"Rules light is incredibly liiberating..

..In what I'm writing, you simply can't use X.  So if the wizard says, "I want to wear plate armor," the rules say no because wizards don't wear plate armor.

It may be liberating for you, the system author. But it seems extremely constraintive/limiting for the players. (there isnt anything wrong with it, though. If youre having fun, thats all that matters )

Thing is, why DON'T wizards wear armor? I mean, if I were a squishy sort of fellow who tended to find himself on battlefields a lot where my capability to throw fireballs around would make me a prime target for, say, bastard sniper-archers, I'd bloody well want some armor and a shield. Dead wizards cast no spells!

Quotewhy DON'T wizards wear armor?

Because they're not proficient with it.

(That's a joke.)

Quote from: misterguignol;485224Fair enough; as long as you're having fun, you're doing it right.

That's should be a quote.

Quote from: Axiomatic;485322Thing is, why DON'T wizards wear armor?

That much metal screws with their casting ability (for humans, anyway).  That's my reasoning IMC.  A little bit, like rings and jewelry?  Not so much.  Anything else though, buckles and whatnot interfere.  Even if it is "just" padded or cuir bolli.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;485327That much metal screws with their casting ability (for humans, anyway).  That's my reasoning IMC.  A little bit, like rings and jewelry?  Not so much.  Anything else though, buckles and whatnot interfere.  Even if it is "just" padded or cuir bolli.

But cuir bolli is leather, urine and water. There is no metal.