Quote from: gleichman;650873What's that in reference to?

Your posting history.

Like it or not, you come across as incredibly hostile in a lot of your posts. It's hard to talk to you.

That's neither here nor there on this site, but given your propensity to accuse others (certainly justified in the aforementioned autism/ocd jibes) of being hostile to you, i think it is important to point out that it's most definitely a two-way street.

If you want to discuss it, i suggest you PM me, so we don't derail this thread further.

Quote from: One Horse Town;650875Your posting history.

Like it or not, you come across as incredibly hostile in a lot of your posts. It's hard to talk to you.

Oh that, I was confused by the word 'exam'.

The truth is that the OSR movement is founded on the principle that everything else is garbage, and they say it often and loud. They shouldn't wince when it's returned.

As for talking to me, one can just drop the insults and system wars. Things might be surprisingly easy if they did.

Quote from: gleichman;650879As for talking to me, one can just drop the insults and system wars. Things might be surprisingly easy if they did.

Except most of us tried. And I for one am not falling for your "I'm innocent and tired" trick. You're acting in the manner of a man who, caught standing next to a dead body, having a bloodied knife in his hand and blood over the entire body, and with five witnesses attesting that you did scream "Now you die!", you'd look at the policemen completely surprised and go "Who, me, officer?"

Quote from: gleichman;650879The truth is that the OSR movement is founded on the principle that everything else is garbage, and they say it often and loud. They shouldn't wince when it's returned.

How about a link to back this up?

Quote from: gleichman;650879Oh that, I was confused by the word 'exam'.

The truth is that the OSR movement is founded on the principle that everything else is garbage, and they say it often and loud. They shouldn't wince when it's returned.

As for talking to me, one can just drop the insults and system wars. Things might be surprisingly easy if they did.

I don't give a shit about the OSR.

I like WFRP and Rolemaster predominantly(well, i like DCC, so i guess i'm an enemy), yet you've managed to insult me on many occasions by your posts. Sure, you might not have name-checked me, but the broad-brush you utilize to 'hit back' at the OSR covers a large explosion template of games.

Now, what was that about PMs?

Quote from: estar;650883How about a link to back this up?

How about you read this thread, or even the primer that kicked it off which (while better than many of posters to this thread) is every bit as condescending as people are claiming in another thread Torchbearer is.

As if only the OSR uses and values (to quote from the Primer) "observation, thinking, and experimentation". Phiifff. What self-righteous drivel. All it is a different focus, nothing more and nothing less. And if people would speak of it in that way there'd be no problem. But instead they have to act as if they're the only enlightened thinking creatures on the planet.

Quote from: One Horse Town;650887I like WFRP and Rolemaster predominantly(well, i like DCC, so i guess i'm an enemy), yet you've managed to insult me on many occasions by your posts. Sure, you might not have name-checked me, but the broad-brush you utilize to 'hit back' at the OSR covers a large explosion template of games.

And they don't? Last time I checked 'modern' games covers a lot of ground (basically everything except OD&D according to talysman back just a few posts).

If I've insulted you somewhere along the way, ask me about it. I'd likely retract it in your case as you were not the target. Don't put yourself in the cross-fire and than act as if I was at fault for slighting you.

Quote from: gleichman;650890If I've insulted you somewhere along the way, ask me about it. I'd likely retract it in your case as you were not the target. Don't put yourself in the cross-fire and than act as if I was at fault for slighting you.

I wash my hands of this mess. Enjoy yourself.

Quote from: One Horse Town;650891I wash my hands of this mess. Enjoy yourself.

I'm done. I've said just about all there is say in response to this thread and I have other things to do.

Quote from: gleichman;650893I'm done. I've said just about all there is say in response to this thread and I have other things to do.

Aw dang.  I was hoping you were going to show me where in the Basic rulebook there were rules for doing grid combat as the way to play.  I mean, you did say a person wasn't playing D&D unless they were using a grid.  And B/X certainly is D&D.  I mean, it says so on the cover....

Quote from: Sacrosanct;650898Aw dang.  I was hoping you were going to show me where in the Basic rulebook there were rules for doing grid combat as the way to play.  I mean, you did say a person wasn't playing D&D unless they were using a grid.  And B/X certainly is D&D.  I mean, it says so on the cover....

See, D&D is a bad RPG anyway, so it doesn't matter. An intelligent group would not use it in the first place.

Mike Mornard posts a lot at RPGnet; he was in EGG's group and blah blah blah you all know the story.  He says they never used minis when playing D&D.  I guess they weren't true gamers, either.

Quote from: talysman;650852Remember, the primer is saying that players don't need to know the rules, not that they aren't allowed to know or guess at the rules.

Unless you are playing Paranoia.

As a side note, I think that while gleichman is an obnoxious prat, SOME of the things he says are not entirely out there. Just read through the thread and say you don't see the occasional insult to people who don't play the OSR way. Oh you know, all those power gamers and charopers and how you are happy that anyone who doesn't agree with your assessment that the rules aren't something for the player to know get up from your game because you wouldn't want to play with those immature power gamers anyway, because that is the ONLY people who could possibly not be into that style of play.

Seriously. I'm not saying its everyone, but there sure is a tendency to deride the vitriol from one side, while all the vitriol from your own side is A-OK and/or nonexistent.

And yeah, while some of the people arguing against the primer aren't being any more respectful, a lot of this all seems like pointless bickering over how someone chooses to pretend to be an elf.

Both styles are valid play. Have fun at your table. Peace.

Quote from: gleichman;650888How about you read this thread, or even the primer that kicked it off which (while better than many of posters to this thread) is every bit as condescending as people are claiming in another thread Torchbearer is.

I have and I asked you a question about a post you wrote. You didn't answer my question.

Quote from: gleichman;650888As if only the OSR uses and values (to quote from the Primer) "observation, thinking, and experimentation". Phiifff. What self-righteous drivel. All it is a different focus, nothing more and nothing less. And if people would speak of it in that way there'd be no problem. But instead they have to act as if they're the only enlightened thinking creatures on the planet.

And I observe that you didn't still didn't post  a link or text where somebody involved in the OSR has said "everything else is garbage".

I think your opinion has no base in fact when you failed to answer my question which I posted as an experiment to see if you were willing to back what you assert.

I speculate that you hold your opinion about the OSR, despite the lack of factual evidence, due to your strong belief in how a tabletop roleplaying game ought to be designed and played based on quotes you made on this board. Also explains your attitude in this thread and similar ones like it.

Quote from: gleichman;604990I feel that the current trends in gaming are counter-productive and destructive to what I enjoy.

Quote from: gleichman;604990I'm really not interested in sharing my insights, getting feedback, having downloads, views or sales.

There's not enough in common with today's gaming trends to make any of the reasonable (i.e. all feedback would be negative, all sales zero).

Quote from: talysman;650852Remember, the primer is saying that players don't need to know the rules, not that they aren't allowed to know or guess at the rules.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;650903Unless you are playing Paranoia.

I know you're just dropping in a one-liner because you saw an opportunity... But again, the primer is not about Paranoia. It is very clearly about a style of play that started with OD&D and continued on through other early versions of D&D and in some games deliberately designed like D&D; it is contrasting that style with another primary style in D&D that started showing up in AD&D, possibly earlier. It is only about other RPGs to the extent that somebody might try to play other RPGs in a very old school D&D way.

Now, an interesting aside might be: was Paranoia partially written the way it was to mock the style of some extreme GMs who banned players from the rules?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;650903As a side note, I think that while gleichman is an obnoxious prat, SOME of the things he says are not entirely out there. Just read through the thread and say you don't see the occasional insult to people who don't play the OSR way. Oh you know, all those power gamers and charopers and how you are happy that anyone who doesn't agree with your assessment that the rules aren't something for the player to know get up from your game because you wouldn't want to play with those immature power gamers anyway, because that is the ONLY people who could possibly not be into that style of play.

I see some people insulting a particular kind of power gamer, a particular kind of rules-obsessed player. Specifically, those who argue in absolutes and talk about rules being objectively good or bad. The kind of gamer who seems to take offense to the very existence of non-optimized gaming.

Signs you're dealing with this type of gamer:

• They complain about how Matt Finch's Primer is insulting;
• They complain that "rulings not rules" is GM abuse;
• They interrupt discussions about old school gaming with number-crunching that "proves" OD&D is not balanced;
• They complain that "player skill over character skill" is unfair to people who don't have various skills in real life;
• They complain that it's impossible for someone to play D&D without knowing the rules;
• They complain that the OSR is exclusionary because it doesn't consider 3e or 4e to be "old school";
• They interpret various statements about old school play as absolutes, instead of relative comparisons or examples.

And many other things as well.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;650903Seriously. I'm not saying its everyone, but there sure is a tendency to deride the vitriol from one side, while all the vitriol from your own side is A-OK and/or nonexistent.

I think 90 to 95% of the "insults" and "vitriol" are people choosing to take offense, where none exists. On BOTH sides.