Quote from: Scooter on July 30, 2023, 06:16:44 PM
Huge fail for moving the goal posts after you've been shown to be wrong.  OMG, a sure sign of insanity

Um, no. That's exactly what the goal posts originally were. It's not my fault you're too stupid and dishonest to get that right.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 28, 2023, 04:42:31 PM

I watched the video and like most of what you said about rule 0.  However, I don't think the "clockmaker deity" approach to GMing is always the best.  At that point, what separates an organic GM from the A.I. variety?

Well, the GM still has to interpret the events, and portray the NPCs

Quote from: Lunamancer on July 28, 2023, 09:32:33 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 28, 2023, 04:24:50 PM

Quote from: Lunamancer on July 27, 2023, 10:00:47 AM
I don't know about the key to the hobby. I just think it's a really good idea.

Did you watch the video?

Yes.

Well then you should know what was my real argument about that.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2023, 11:44:26 PM
Well then you should know what was my real argument about that.

Real argument about what? I didn't make any argument at all about it not being key. All I said is that I don't think it is key, and then went on to give a few of the reasons why I think rule zero is good. You have absolutely no basis at all for concluding I didn't watch your video or didn't consider your "real" argument.

Quote from: Lunamancer on July 31, 2023, 07:01:48 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2023, 11:44:26 PM
Well then you should know what was my real argument about that.

Real argument about what? I didn't make any argument at all about it not being key. All I said is that I don't think it is key, and then went on to give a few of the reasons why I think rule zero is good. You have absolutely no basis at all for concluding I didn't watch your video or didn't consider your "real" argument.

You don't understand... Pundit is always right. Anyone who doesn't agree is just too unenlightened to understand his real arguments... and probably a fascist. [/sarc]

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2023, 11:42:17 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 28, 2023, 04:42:31 PM

I watched the video and like most of what you said about rule 0.  However, I don't think the "clockmaker deity" approach to GMing is always the best.  At that point, what separates an organic GM from the A.I. variety?

Well, the GM still has to interpret the events, and portray the NPCs

Yes, and interpreting events is what GMs do when they change, alter, or nudge the game's reality in order to facilitate a better story.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 28, 2023, 09:57:58 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 28, 2023, 04:22:47 PMDid you watch my video?

Yes. That's why I put that mention of how you called people that don't play the way you prefer "fascists" (at 20 minutes in).

It is really a pointless argument. If you, like you said in the video, consider inventing a new monsters for your game an example of "Rule 0" then, of course, Rule 0 is ubiquitous. But nobody else uses the term like that. Rule 0 is specific to changing the game rules, not adding new monsters, magic items, or classes.

The point I made is that rule 0 is the foundation for innovation. D&D could have been a game like monopoly or chess, where there is a single defined idea of what the game is like; but it was never going to be that, not even from the start, because even the creators themselves kept right on innovating, as did everyone else; and that was hardwired in actual play, as GMs tried out ideas with rules in their own games that (some of them) would later make into new rulebooks.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 28, 2023, 09:57:58 PM
It is really a pointless argument. If you, like you said in the video, consider inventing a new monsters for your game an example of "Rule 0" then, of course, Rule 0 is ubiquitous. But nobody else uses the term like that. Rule 0 is specific to changing the game rules, not adding new monsters, magic items, or classes.

And in almost 50 years I've never seen a game being played for any length of time where the GM hasn't changed any rules; NOT just creating new things).  Thus Rule 0 is the rule not the exception

Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 31, 2023, 10:55:45 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2023, 11:42:17 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 28, 2023, 04:42:31 PM

I watched the video and like most of what you said about rule 0.  However, I don't think the "clockmaker deity" approach to GMing is always the best.  At that point, what separates an organic GM from the A.I. variety?

Well, the GM still has to interpret the events, and portray the NPCs

Yes, and interpreting events is what GMs do when they change, alter, or nudge the game's reality in order to facilitate a better story.

I know what you meant (or at least I'm presuming to), but it's something I'm beginning to chafe at in these discussions (I agree with you and Pundit on this)... but the use of "story" to describe the in-game narrative is what ultimately confuses players and GM's less experienced in what you're really talking about.

What you really mean is that GM's (via rule zero) interpret rolls and events and their expressions in order to better facilitate the setting's representation to the players. The *story* is always what happens after those facts.

My core GMing thesis is that it's the job of the GM to represent their setting/world to the players authentically. The system is secondary (but important), and Rule Zero is an *absolute* requirement in the prosecution of this concept.

Quote from: tenbones on July 31, 2023, 11:24:59 AM

I know what you meant (or at least I'm presuming to), but it's something I'm beginning to chafe at in these discussions (I agree with you and Pundit on this)... but the use of "story" to describe the in-game narrative is what ultimately confuses players and GM's less experienced in what you're really talking about.

I noticed this incorrect use of the word "story" creep into TTRPGs about 15 years ago.  I think it is because the people starting to play around that time had the actual education level of a small child and of course the vocabulary level to match.  One isn't telling a story when GMing.  One is responding to actions the players take in the game world.  One MAY create a story around what HAS (past tense) transpired in an adventure. 

Quote from: tenbones on July 31, 2023, 11:24:59 AM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 31, 2023, 10:55:45 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2023, 11:42:17 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 28, 2023, 04:42:31 PM

I watched the video and like most of what you said about rule 0.  However, I don't think the "clockmaker deity" approach to GMing is always the best.  At that point, what separates an organic GM from the A.I. variety?

Well, the GM still has to interpret the events, and portray the NPCs

Yes, and interpreting events is what GMs do when they change, alter, or nudge the game's reality in order to facilitate a better story.

I know what you meant (or at least I'm presuming to), but it's something I'm beginning to chafe at in these discussions (I agree with you and Pundit on this)... but the use of "story" to describe the in-game narrative is what ultimately confuses players and GM's less experienced in what you're really talking about.

What you really mean is that GM's (via rule zero) interpret rolls and events and their expressions in order to better facilitate the setting's representation to the players. The *story* is always what happens after those facts.

My core GMing thesis is that it's the job of the GM to represent their setting/world to the players authentically. The system is secondary (but important), and Rule Zero is an *absolute* requirement in the prosecution of this concept.

Jumping in for an opinion; I don't really see "story" and "mechanics" as things you should see in isolation. It's more like a bonsai artist wiring a tree. Pardon me as I post some large images to act as a visual metaphor.



If you aren't familiar with bonsai, wiring is literally wrapping the trunk and branches of a bonsai with copper wire to act like orthodontic braces; they exert a slight, but constant pressure on the tree which slowly bends the tree into the shape you are looking for. This is why bonsai trees can have some shockingly intense shapes and are not just tiny vertical saplings.



Game mechanics are wires you wrap around the trunk of the RPG game (the player experience and story) to shape it into something over time. The GM doesn't necessarily need to be able to write the RPG rules which shape the player experience like this, but the GM does need to know what direction the mechanics are intended to go in so that they don't invoke Rule Zero in a way which conflicts with the intended experience outcome of the game.

Quote from: Fheredin on July 31, 2023, 12:44:11 PM
Game mechanics are wires you wrap around the trunk of the RPG game (the player experience and story)

What story?

Quote from: Scooter on July 28, 2023, 09:32:07 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 28, 2023, 07:09:07 PM
A house rule is something that is openly announced and agreed on.

Bullcrap.  House rules are just that.  99% of them I've run into in my 47 years of gaming have been made by the GM and no one ever had the players vote on it.

In my gaming group, when a house rule was presented, it was voted on to use it.
You must of had some pretty shitty DMs then.

Quote from: blackstone on July 31, 2023, 03:16:38 PM
In my gaming group, when a house rule was presented, it was voted on to use it.
You must of had some pretty shitty DMs then.

Yes, Gary and Dave Hargrave weren't that good.  LMAO at children

Gary who? 

I don't understand why you're being so argumentative. What's the deal?

(oh I'm 52. Not a child by a long shot)