Quote from: Trond on September 26, 2021, 12:11:01 AM

Quote from: Batjon on September 25, 2021, 11:14:30 PM
He claims he was woke before it was fashionable and paid a huge price for it.  He literally said that in a video on YouTube.

Oh dear.  In what way did he "pay" for it?

No idea.  I'm sure he will claim he was shunned in the community or something and was the woke trailblazer.

Well he was quite proud of writing self described gay erotica as part of the opening fiction of 7th Sea second edition.

7th Sea was already a pretty progressive setting when it released, but John seemed like he knew which way the wind was blowing, went in and cranked up the progressivism to 11. Gender swapping a lot of the previously beloved signature NPCs.

That combined with some other over arching setting changes and a system change that converted it right into a story game made me regret being one of the backers.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 26, 2021, 03:27:50 PM7th Sea was already a pretty progressive setting when it released, but John seemed like he knew which way the wind was blowing, went in and cranked up the progressivism to 11. Gender swapping a lot of the previously beloved signature NPCs.

That's not surprising. Way back in the day, when asked why he created a fantasy version of history instead of creating a historical RPG, he said that it was because he wanted female PCs to not have historic restrictions.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 26, 2021, 07:41:33 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 26, 2021, 03:27:50 PM7th Sea was already a pretty progressive setting when it released, but John seemed like he knew which way the wind was blowing, went in and cranked up the progressivism to 11. Gender swapping a lot of the previously beloved signature NPCs.

That's not surprising. Way back in the day, when asked why he created a fantasy version of history instead of creating a historical RPG, he said that it was because he wanted female PCs to not have historic restrictions.

This is something I don't have an issue with, as long as people still tolerate others playing games with, say, traditional Arthurian ladies or whatever. I might have loosened up female restrictions a bit in an Arabian Nights game too for instance. But it soon turned into "well it's OK to like those games DESPITE their PROBLEMATIC content" (ignoring that people might like it BECAUSE of the content). And from there to a more "Thou shalt not!" kind of attitude.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 26, 2021, 07:41:33 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 26, 2021, 03:27:50 PM7th Sea was already a pretty progressive setting when it released, but John seemed like he knew which way the wind was blowing, went in and cranked up the progressivism to 11. Gender swapping a lot of the previously beloved signature NPCs.

That's not surprising. Way back in the day, when asked why he created a fantasy version of history instead of creating a historical RPG, he said that it was because he wanted female PCs to not have historic restrictions.

Well, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon. The 7ft tall Infamous Pirate who was the scourage of the Seas and like a nightmare version of Captain Hook Reus inexplicably became a woman.

Allande, the former first born son of Castille who had thrown away his crown in secret and founded the free nation of the Brotherhood of the Coast inexplicably became a woman as well, with zero connection to the previous set up except for helping found the Brotherhood of the Coast.

There's a whole lot of things like that. Meanwhile, interesting as hell female NPC Villains like Fauner Posen one of the Leaders of Eisen just ended up ceasing to exist. Fauner Posen was interesting because she was Lawful Evil in that sense of, a Villain because she honestly believed the ends justified the means, and had a chance at redemption... But poof, no longer exists! Instead replaced by... a Vampire. Just a Woman whose clearly a Vampire.

There was a lot more overt homosexuality introduced too, which I mostly don't have an issue with, as 1st edition was lacking that, and I am for Gay representation in media. But the way Wick handled it in 2nd edition bordered on the realm of straight up exploitive. Like I mentioned the opening fiction is a straight up homoerotic sex scene... For a Swashbuckling game.

Rather than take the already exisiting awesome material that was already progressive and add a few more gay/lesbian characters, he went the route of pandering to the SJW crowd, and it comes across as that... Pandering, and it seems a little soulless because of it.

That combined with lots of other inexplicable changes and the removal of lots of conflict from the setting, and the storey game rules really made it a heart breaker for myself and lots of other backers and not in a good way. To this day I have a ton of the produced 2nd edition supplements I haven't bothered to read because the setting just lost me. Unlike 1st edition where I devoured everything that came out for it.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 26, 2021, 07:41:33 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 26, 2021, 03:27:50 PM7th Sea was already a pretty progressive setting when it released, but John seemed like he knew which way the wind was blowing, went in and cranked up the progressivism to 11. Gender swapping a lot of the previously beloved signature NPCs.

That's not surprising. Way back in the day, when asked why he created a fantasy version of history instead of creating a historical RPG, he said that it was because he wanted female PCs to not have historic restrictions.

Well, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon. The 7ft tall Infamous Pirate who was the scourage of the Seas and like a nightmare version of Captain Hook Reus inexplicably became a woman.

Allande, the former first born son of Castille who had thrown away his crown in secret and founded the free nation of the Brotherhood of the Coast inexplicably became a woman as well, with zero connection to the previous set up except for helping found the Brotherhood of the Coast.

There's a whole lot of things like that. Meanwhile, interesting as hell female NPC Villains like Fauner Posen one of the Leaders of Eisen just ended up ceasing to exist. Fauner Posen was interesting because she was Lawful Evil in that sense of, a Villain because she honestly believed the ends justified the means, and had a chance at redemption... But poof, no longer exists! Instead replaced by... a Vampire. Just a Woman whose clearly a Vampire.

There was a lot more overt homosexuality introduced too, which I mostly don't have an issue with, as 1st edition was lacking that, and I am for Gay representation in media. But the way Wick handled it in 2nd edition bordered on the realm of straight up exploitive. Like I mentioned the opening fiction is a straight up homoerotic sex scene... For a Swashbuckling game.

Rather than take the already exisiting awesome material that was already progressive and add a few more gay/lesbian characters, he went the route of pandering to the SJW crowd, and it comes across as that... Pandering, and it seems a little soulless because of it.

That combined with lots of other inexplicable changes and the removal of lots of conflict from the setting, and the storey game rules really made it a heart breaker for myself and lots of other backers and not in a good way. To this day I have a ton of the produced 2nd edition supplements I haven't bothered to read because the setting just lost me. Unlike 1st edition where I devoured everything that came out for it.

1st edition was inspired and awesome. There were a few mechanics within that weren't fully fleshed out if I recall correctly. I played the hell out of the card game too. Great game.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AMWell, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon.

That's the thing isn't it. Once you say "I'm for representation in media" then the only possible outcome will be more representation. And then more representation. Adding ever more obscure population groups each time.

The first edition of 7th Sea was pandering to trendy demographics and the second edition is pandering to the currently trendy demographic. This is why I'm against the very idea of representation. I'm not going to just argue about where to draw the line.

On a more recent side note. 

Wicki said he never 'bans' people commenting on his youtube channel, or blocks them. Basically, in order to show everyone what 'bigots' they really are.

Of course, that's not really true... I've a few youtube accounts. And I dropped a comment letting the good viewers know of the rather nice thread that's currently on rpg.net about Wicky and I was shadow banned very shortly afterwards.

It seems Wicky skin isn't quite as thick as he pretends it to be...

Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 27, 2021, 07:45:19 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AMWell, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon.

That's the thing isn't it. Once you say "I'm for representation in media" then the only possible outcome will be more representation. And then more representation. Adding ever more obscure population groups each time.

The first edition of 7th Sea was pandering to trendy demographics and the second edition is pandering to the currently trendy demographic. This is why I'm against the very idea of representation. I'm not going to just argue about where to draw the line.

Yeah that's a *HARD* disagree from me right there. Putting minorities in your game, or allowing women to be seen as politically equal to men in your historical fantasy doesn't count as "Pandering" to me. It's making a good game.

Weird I know, but unless I'm actually running a game set in a real historical period like 1200s England, I prefer character options to be more than just Straight White Men. Call me an SJW.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:20:26 PM
Call me an SJW.

You are a SJW.

Any other requests, I am here all day.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:20:26 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 27, 2021, 07:45:19 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AMWell, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon.

That's the thing isn't it. Once you say "I'm for representation in media" then the only possible outcome will be more representation. And then more representation. Adding ever more obscure population groups each time.

The first edition of 7th Sea was pandering to trendy demographics and the second edition is pandering to the currently trendy demographic. This is why I'm against the very idea of representation. I'm not going to just argue about where to draw the line.

Yeah that's a *HARD* disagree from me right there. Putting minorities in your game, or allowing women to be seen as politically equal to men in your historical fantasy doesn't count as "Pandering" to me. It's making a good game.

Weird I know, but unless I'm actually running a game set in a real historical period like 1200s England, I prefer character options to be more than just Straight White Men. Call me an SJW.

Because Dragons.

That's your argument here. Without knowing jackshit about the game worlds you're talking about. HISTORICAL Fantasy indeed.

How historical? You don't know, but if anyone dares not play The One True Way then they are istophobes am I rite? Why? Because Dragons.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 06:04:53 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:20:26 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 27, 2021, 07:45:19 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AMWell, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon.

That's the thing isn't it. Once you say "I'm for representation in media" then the only possible outcome will be more representation. And then more representation. Adding ever more obscure population groups each time.

The first edition of 7th Sea was pandering to trendy demographics and the second edition is pandering to the currently trendy demographic. This is why I'm against the very idea of representation. I'm not going to just argue about where to draw the line.

Yeah that's a *HARD* disagree from me right there. Putting minorities in your game, or allowing women to be seen as politically equal to men in your historical fantasy doesn't count as "Pandering" to me. It's making a good game.

Weird I know, but unless I'm actually running a game set in a real historical period like 1200s England, I prefer character options to be more than just Straight White Men. Call me an SJW.

Because Dragons.

That's your argument here. Without knowing jackshit about the game worlds you're talking about. HISTORICAL Fantasy indeed.

How historical? You don't know, but if anyone dares not play The One True Way then they are istophobes am I rite? Why? Because Dragons.

We are literally talking about 7th Sea. A game that doesn't take place in the real world, and was created specifically with the idea of a society where women for the most part are given equal rights as men. There is one country where this is not the case and women have no rights.

You're crapping on me in this thread without understanding of the debate taking place because I don't agree with you in another thread. Stop being emotional, learn to separate different debate topics from one another, and don't take it personally.

I literally pointed out an example where I would keep things as they're presented. The World of Darkness "Dark Ages" setting for example.

But 7th Sea allowing you to play women and minorities and not for the most part have to face racism and sexism (Outside of Voddacce where the women have no rights because they have magic fate powers the men want to control) isn't fucking pandering.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:11:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 06:04:53 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 05:20:26 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on September 27, 2021, 07:45:19 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 27, 2021, 03:47:53 AMWell, 7th Sea first edition already had plenty of Heroic (And Villanious) female characters who were everything from Swashbucklers, Pirates, Thieves, Clergy and everything else. It was just in 2nd edition, it was clear he was pandering to the new trend on the Horizon.

That's the thing isn't it. Once you say "I'm for representation in media" then the only possible outcome will be more representation. And then more representation. Adding ever more obscure population groups each time.

The first edition of 7th Sea was pandering to trendy demographics and the second edition is pandering to the currently trendy demographic. This is why I'm against the very idea of representation. I'm not going to just argue about where to draw the line.

Yeah that's a *HARD* disagree from me right there. Putting minorities in your game, or allowing women to be seen as politically equal to men in your historical fantasy doesn't count as "Pandering" to me. It's making a good game.

Weird I know, but unless I'm actually running a game set in a real historical period like 1200s England, I prefer character options to be more than just Straight White Men. Call me an SJW.

Because Dragons.

That's your argument here. Without knowing jackshit about the game worlds you're talking about. HISTORICAL Fantasy indeed.

How historical? You don't know, but if anyone dares not play The One True Way then they are istophobes am I rite? Why? Because Dragons.

We are literally talking about 7th Sea. A game that doesn't take place in the real world, and was created specifically with the idea of a society where women for the most part are given equal rights as men. There is one country where this is not the case and women have no rights.

You're crapping on me in this thread without understanding of the debate taking place because I don't agree with you in another thread. Stop being emotional, learn to separate different debate topics from one another, and don't take it personally.

I literally pointed out an example where I would keep things as they're presented. The World of Darkness "Dark Ages" setting for example.

But 7th Sea allowing you to play women and minorities and not for the most part have to face racism and sexism (Outside of Voddacce where the women have no rights because they have magic fate powers the men want to control) isn't fucking pandering.

You're correct, it isn't fucking pandering, it's pandering AND presenting a narrative about Teh Evul Patriarchy.

No, I'm not emotional you said "In your historical fantasy game" did you not? That's a generalization of ALL games that fit the descrition, it's what I'm arguing against.

Now, IF you didn't mean it as said generalization then my bad. Next time I'll try harder to read your mind.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 29, 2021, 06:11:39 PM
We are literally talking about 7th Sea. A game that doesn't take place in the real world, and was created specifically with the idea of a society where women for the most part are given equal rights as men. There is one country where this is not the case and women have no rights.

I remember when we used to play games that dont take place in the real world.

Good times, good times.

Quote from: Shasarak on September 29, 2021, 07:32:48 PM
I remember when we used to play games that dont take place in the real world.

Good times, good times.

I miss those times... then it went to shit.