Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;868351Why have both demons and devils when devils are demons suffering special snowflake syndrome?

:confused:
What does that even mean?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;866886What do you think?

I think the segment of the OSR centered around OD&D tends to focus on demons only and the segment of the OSR centered around AD&D 1st has both demons and deviles.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;866886EDIT: I am referring to the problems I mentioned beforehand. How would you address the problem of demons and devils in new school games looking and acting too similar? It's not enough to simply say they're anarchists and fascists, because that's already stated.
To illustrate this better: in Pathfinder one of the devils is a baby fly centaur and one of the demons is a man in a tuxedo with the head of a fly. If you didn't have the book in front of you, it would be easy to forget which they're supposed to be.

Man it sucks trying to how to make thousands of bipedal hairless monkeys all different doesn't it? Especially when they all look alike.

Seriously you are overthinking it. The difference between demons and devils are a philosphical one in how they approach evil. The fact one is fascist and the other anarchist is the point. What physical form they take is a minor issue compared to that.

The reason they feel similar is because well they are both evil. And Good vs. Evil tends to overwhelm Law vs. Chaos in people's mind. In OD&D it is common to equate Law with the good guys and Chaos with the baddies.

For me personally for the Majestic Wilderlands I don't go for a variety of races or forms. I tend to stick to a base set of races and creatures and try to introduce variety through having different cultures. And this includes the demons in my setting.

For the Majestic Wilderlands I dropped alignment. I haven't used it for ages. However there is absolute good and absolute evil in the setting. And the demons are the poster child.

At the dawn of time, gods, men, and elves were were united in a single glorious civilization centered around the First City. A faction arose that lusted after forbidden knowledge. This knowledge was forbidden because no good could come of it and using it was a form of spiritual self-harm and would cause harm to others. Above all this faction desired dominion to reshape the world to their own desire regard of the consequences.

They were discovered, some recanted, and others well rebelled. And they were successful, bringing down the First City, taking control of creation, and driving the survivors into hiding.

Eventually the surviving gods, men, and elves united and were able to defeat the demons in the Uttermost War. The Abyss was created as a prison and the demons were cast down into it.

Unfortunately before they were defeated demons took those they enslaved and twisted them creating the multitude of sentient races that exist in the present day. They also twisted the fauna of the world into the various monsters.

The creation of the Abyss allowed magic to used in the form of spell. Before the Abyss, magic could only be used through elaborate and time-consuming rituals or devices created by these rituals. But afterwards a strong will could shape magic into spells which could be cast quickly.

At one point I made a in-game document that is one culture's equivalent to the Book of Genesis.

The take away is not my specific vision but rather that a referee should think about the role of absolute good and evil in their setting. Then adapt the D&D monsters to that.

While you could make each race of evil somehow visual distinctive. It is an equally valid approach to treat them like any sentient races in that they all have a similar general form but are different in their cultures and interests.

I still retain the various types of OD&D demons however I completely revamp their flavor text in favor of the cosmology I developed above. Each of the type demons in my "monster and treasures" are a template of a class of demons who do similar things. For example Type VI demons are representative of a group of demon who work as captains, and elite troops for the demon lords. Type I demons (vrocks) are representative of demon altered to be aerial scouts and so on.

Some demon lords control their faction through a fascist heirarchy. Other demon lords factions are little better than a crazed mob lead by a charismatic leader. In general the larger factions are more "lawful" and the smaller factions are more "chaotic". However they are all evil with all it's attendant faults and long-term consequences.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;868351Why have both demons and devils when devils are demons suffering special snowflake syndrome?

Devils are distinct because they are specific faction of organized evil. Even in a cosmology where all evil dwells in the same underworld. Their hierarchies and organization would make them stand out. The implied setting of D&D labels that faction as devils.

In real-life there is little distinction between demons and devils. Except that devils as a category label are generally limited to the denizens of hell in the Abrahamic religions. Demon are also applied as a label to the denizens of hell but it also commonly to used as a category label for evil supernatural creatures/races of other mythologies. Babylonian mythology for example has a lot of demons.

D&D reflects this same imprecise use of the terms of devils and demons. You have to remember that when it comes to the contents of the various lists (classes, spells, items, and monsters) Arneson, Gygax, borrowed whatever that interested them or what they found to be fun. There is no rhyme or reason other than personal preferences.