Are there any?  I've heard that Game of Thrones has a decent one, but don't know much else.

MasterBook actually has a pretty good system, but it depends on the type of overall mechanics you're looking for. From intimidating and charming to conning and persuading to taunting and maneuvering, the outcomes vary depending on success.

Dying Earth is all about social conflict, but I don't remember how it works (not my cup of tea).

I know there are a bunch, I'm tired and can't think of them.

For those who like such things, I've heard Burning Wheel is one of the more intricate and developed.

FATE is a good option, the Social Stress track and Social Consequences allows you Social-Fu your enemy into fleeing in disgrace.

GURPS with GURPS Social Engineering plugged in is pretty good.

How popular are social combat systems; things like 'social hit points, social wounds' and the like?

DC Heroes is probably fairly good if you like that sort of thing, though maybe its a bit ornate. The universal table system for social combat is very similar to physical combat: you cross-reference social attack vs. their social resistance, but if you're social effect attribute isn't strong enough to overcome their resistance value you might need multiple column shifts to get enough effect (RAPs) to pull it off. There are multiple skills you can buy that substitute for the basic attributes, reaction modifiers (e.g. a bonus or penalty if the target is awestruck/enamoured).
A target can spend hero points to negate the effect in some cases e.g. a PC who's being tortured would need to cough up the hero points or will squeal - how many determined by how large the villain's result is. I forget if extended checks are normally used in this sort of case, but it would be very easy to houserule in by allowing result points to stack across multiple attempts, if it doesn't already.

Quote from: TristramEvans;680694For those who like such things, I've heard Burning Wheel is one of the more intricate and developed.

I said RPGs, not autistic storygames.  BITCH.

Quote from: TristramEvans;680694For those who like such things, I've heard Burning Wheel is one of the more intricate and developed.

Burning wheel is fun but starts to feel like a courtroom proceeding fairly quickly IME. (but to be fair, a pretty cool courtroom proceeding )

Quote from: Piestrio;680826Burning wheel is fun but starts to feel like a courtroom proceeding fairly quickly IME. (but to be fair, a pretty cool courtroom proceeding )

Agreed that BW feels like a courtroom.  On the other hand, that is a step up from some social combat systems that feel like physical combat.  

FATE, for example, treats social interaction in the same way as physical combat in games like Dresden Files.  I tried using the social combat rules a few times, but gave up on them.  One issue is the effect of having an advantage in numbers.  For a simple skill roll or other action, numbers don't add up linearly - i.e. to pick a lock, it doesn't add that much if anything for the thief to have the fighter and wizard helping.  However, in combat numbers add linearly.  Thus, a crowd who aren't particularly socially skilled can mob and wear down a skilled diplomat.  That didn't work for me and made it a problem to set up any social conflicts.  

For me, Burning Wheel's Duel of Wits is limited but works especially for situations like a courtroom or public debate.  

I don't know of a good system for social interaction more generally - but for my money, it would not treat social interaction as "combat".

Quote from: jhkim;680847Agreed that BW feels like a courtroom.  On the other hand, that is a step up from some social combat systems that feel like physical combat.  

FATE, for example, treats social interaction in the same way as physical combat in games like Dresden Files.  I tried using the social combat rules a few times, but gave up on them.  One issue is the effect of having an advantage in numbers.  For a simple skill roll or other action, numbers don't add up linearly - i.e. to pick a lock, it doesn't add that much if anything for the thief to have the fighter and wizard helping.  However, in combat numbers add linearly.  Thus, a crowd who aren't particularly socially skilled can mob and wear down a skilled diplomat.  That didn't work for me and made it a problem to set up any social conflicts.  

For me, Burning Wheel's Duel of Wits is limited but works especially for situations like a courtroom or public debate.  

I don't know of a good system for social interaction more generally - but for my money, it would not treat social interaction as "combat".

It may surprise anyone that read the thread about social systems where a few of us and Pundit looked at this from different sides, but I completely agree with this.  I don't see social situations as combat; as a matter of fact, they are quite often considered a success when everyone agrees and thinks they get along (but someone used their skills or knowledge to improve their situation).

Quote from: jhkim;680847Agreed that BW feels like a courtroom.  On the other hand, that is a step up from some social combat systems that feel like physical combat.

BW's social conflict is probably the *best* social resolution mechanic I've seen.  Doesn't mean it's *perfect*, of course.  

Quote from: jhkim;680847Thus, a crowd who aren't particularly socially skilled can mob and wear down a skilled diplomat.  That didn't work for me and made it a problem to set up any social conflicts.

Depends on whether you give the mob a "gang up bonus" or not.  Without a gang up bonus, it'll be hard for them to do much of anything against the skilled diplomat, unless they have a ton of Fate Points to blow on things.

If you force the "mob" to actually use Maneuver (or whatever the Create Advantage equivalent is called in Dresden), then the inevitable spin that the diplomat gets can make his job easier.

It's also a matter of what makes sense in the situation - a mob might well wear down a Diplomat through intimidation or the like.  I think that's pretty reasonable.

And, of course, the Diplomat has to engage in the social conflict in the first place - if there's nothing he wants, then there's no reason to engage.

That said, I do find the social conflict rules in Fate to be weaker than those in BW, and not particularly useful for debates as opposed to things more like intimidation effects.

From a Fate Core perspective, I'd probably be tempted to use a social version of a Contest, rather than a Conflict, to represent a debate or less hostile social interaction.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;680813I said RPGs, not autistic storygames.  BITCH.

:rolleyes:

Then the answer is NONE. Social combat systems are for the weak of mind and socially inept. They corrupt our children and weaken the resolve of our allies.

I don't like social "combat" systems that feel like real combat.  Actual discourse does not involve browbeating someone until he gives in to your ideas.  You don't seduce a lovely lady by giving her flowers over and over again until she lacks the will to resist your advances (and may have gone crazy) and if you give up, she's not suddenly also more prone to being persuaded to vote for a different candidate than she normally would have until she "heals" the damage your seduction caused.  You can't force someone to admit that the sky is, in fact, pink, or that Queen is a terrible band.  So those aren't for me.

I also don't like binary "mind-control" systems, where you say "I want X, and I have a Diplomacy of FIFTY so I succeed at get what I want." It lacks the nuance I'd like in a deep, social game, such as the cut and thrust of actual intrigue and they tend to detract from actual mind control effects.  Furthermore, they have the same "I violate your character" problems with the above.

GURPS (especially with Social Engineering) is decent, having sufficient depth while having a sufficiently light touch, as all a good social roll can really do is give a "good reaction" (thus the lady you're wooing might enjoy your company, or she might find you cute, and she might be willing to help you out, but she's not going to leave her husband for you if she has Sense of Duty: Hubbie), and doing things like rewriting a character's personality requires extensive Brainwashing or crazy, psychic powers, as it should.

But for my money, the best has to be the Chi Condition system found in Weapons of the Gods and Legends of the Wulin.  It creates a system of incentives and disincentives to do what you want.  The lady can let herself be seduced by you OR she suffers some kind of penalty (or she gains some bonus if she lets herself be seduced by you), which preserves character autonomy while always making sure that the successful social character gets something.  This further ties into their "elemental cycle," so that the moment a chi condition comes into play, other social characters can play off of it, shifting it, spinning new chi conditions off of it, so her crush on you can be turned into an obsession, which can spawn jealous rages, which might power curses to afflict the other girl you're flirting with, which might make her paranoid, which is great, because I can use that paranoia to create a feeling of trust in my character...

Awesome system.

DW:AiTaS allows you to basically use social skills as full combat skills.

So if someone is shooting you you can use your skill in an opposed roll to talk them out of it. Was fast, simple and simulated the show.