Are there any? I've heard that Game of Thrones has a decent one, but don't know much else.
MasterBook actually has a pretty good system, but it depends on the type of overall mechanics you're looking for. From intimidating and charming to conning and persuading to taunting and maneuvering, the outcomes vary depending on success.
Dying Earth is all about social conflict, but I don't remember how it works (not my cup of tea).
I know there are a bunch, I'm tired and can't think of them.
For those who like such things, I've heard Burning Wheel is one of the more intricate and developed.
FATE is a good option, the Social Stress track and Social Consequences allows you Social-Fu your enemy into fleeing in disgrace. :)
GURPS with GURPS Social Engineering plugged in is pretty good.
How popular are social combat systems; things like 'social hit points, social wounds' and the like?
DC Heroes is probably fairly good if you like that sort of thing, though maybe its a bit ornate. The universal table system for social combat is very similar to physical combat: you cross-reference social attack vs. their social resistance, but if you're social effect attribute isn't strong enough to overcome their resistance value you might need multiple column shifts to get enough effect (RAPs) to pull it off. There are multiple skills you can buy that substitute for the basic attributes, reaction modifiers (e.g. a bonus or penalty if the target is awestruck/enamoured).
A target can spend hero points to negate the effect in some cases e.g. a PC who's being tortured would need to cough up the hero points or will squeal - how many determined by how large the villain's result is. I forget if extended checks are normally used in this sort of case, but it would be very easy to houserule in by allowing result points to stack across multiple attempts, if it doesn't already.
Quote from: TristramEvans;680694For those who like such things, I've heard Burning Wheel is one of the more intricate and developed.
I said RPGs, not autistic storygames. BITCH.
Quote from: TristramEvans;680694For those who like such things, I've heard Burning Wheel is one of the more intricate and developed.
Burning wheel is fun but starts to feel like a courtroom proceeding fairly quickly IME. (but to be fair, a pretty cool courtroom proceeding :D )
Quote from: Piestrio;680826Burning wheel is fun but starts to feel like a courtroom proceeding fairly quickly IME. (but to be fair, a pretty cool courtroom proceeding :D )
Agreed that BW feels like a courtroom. On the other hand, that is a step up from some social combat systems that feel like physical combat.
FATE, for example, treats social interaction in the same way as physical combat in games like Dresden Files. I tried using the social combat rules a few times, but gave up on them. One issue is the effect of having an advantage in numbers. For a simple skill roll or other action, numbers don't add up linearly - i.e. to pick a lock, it doesn't add that much if anything for the thief to have the fighter and wizard helping. However, in combat numbers add linearly. Thus, a crowd who aren't particularly socially skilled can mob and wear down a skilled diplomat. That didn't work for me and made it a problem to set up any social conflicts.
For me, Burning Wheel's Duel of Wits is limited but works especially for situations like a courtroom or public debate.
I don't know of a good system for social interaction more generally - but for my money, it would not treat social interaction as "combat".
Quote from: jhkim;680847Agreed that BW feels like a courtroom. On the other hand, that is a step up from some social combat systems that feel like physical combat.
FATE, for example, treats social interaction in the same way as physical combat in games like Dresden Files. I tried using the social combat rules a few times, but gave up on them. One issue is the effect of having an advantage in numbers. For a simple skill roll or other action, numbers don't add up linearly - i.e. to pick a lock, it doesn't add that much if anything for the thief to have the fighter and wizard helping. However, in combat numbers add linearly. Thus, a crowd who aren't particularly socially skilled can mob and wear down a skilled diplomat. That didn't work for me and made it a problem to set up any social conflicts.
For me, Burning Wheel's Duel of Wits is limited but works especially for situations like a courtroom or public debate.
I don't know of a good system for social interaction more generally - but for my money, it would not treat social interaction as "combat".
It may surprise anyone that read the thread about social systems where a few of us and Pundit looked at this from different sides, but I completely agree with this. I don't see social situations as combat; as a matter of fact, they are quite often considered a success when everyone agrees and thinks they get along (but someone used their skills or knowledge to improve their situation).
Quote from: jhkim;680847Agreed that BW feels like a courtroom. On the other hand, that is a step up from some social combat systems that feel like physical combat.
BW's social conflict is probably the *best* social resolution mechanic I've seen. Doesn't mean it's *perfect*, of course.
Quote from: jhkim;680847Thus, a crowd who aren't particularly socially skilled can mob and wear down a skilled diplomat. That didn't work for me and made it a problem to set up any social conflicts.
Depends on whether you give the mob a "gang up bonus" or not. Without a gang up bonus, it'll be hard for them to do much of anything against the skilled diplomat, unless they have a ton of Fate Points to blow on things.
If you force the "mob" to actually use Maneuver (or whatever the Create Advantage equivalent is called in Dresden), then the inevitable spin that the diplomat gets can make his job easier.
It's also a matter of what makes sense in the situation - a mob might well wear down a Diplomat through intimidation or the like. I think that's pretty reasonable.
And, of course, the Diplomat has to engage in the social conflict in the first place - if there's nothing he wants, then there's no reason to engage.
That said, I do find the social conflict rules in Fate to be weaker than those in BW, and not particularly useful for debates as opposed to things more like intimidation effects.
From a Fate Core perspective, I'd probably be tempted to use a social version of a Contest, rather than a Conflict, to represent a debate or less hostile social interaction.
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;680813I said RPGs, not autistic storygames. BITCH.
:rolleyes:
Then the answer is NONE. Social combat systems are for the weak of mind and socially inept. They corrupt our children and weaken the resolve of our allies.
I don't like social "combat" systems that feel like real combat. Actual discourse does not involve browbeating someone until he gives in to your ideas. You don't seduce a lovely lady by giving her flowers over and over again until she lacks the will to resist your advances (and may have gone crazy) and if you give up, she's not suddenly also more prone to being persuaded to vote for a different candidate than she normally would have until she "heals" the damage your seduction caused. You can't force someone to admit that the sky is, in fact, pink, or that Queen is a terrible band. So those aren't for me.
I also don't like binary "mind-control" systems, where you say "I want X, and I have a Diplomacy of FIFTY so I succeed at get what I want." It lacks the nuance I'd like in a deep, social game, such as the cut and thrust of actual intrigue and they tend to detract from actual mind control effects. Furthermore, they have the same "I violate your character" problems with the above.
GURPS (especially with Social Engineering) is decent, having sufficient depth while having a sufficiently light touch, as all a good social roll can really do is give a "good reaction" (thus the lady you're wooing might enjoy your company, or she might find you cute, and she might be willing to help you out, but she's not going to leave her husband for you if she has Sense of Duty: Hubbie), and doing things like rewriting a character's personality requires extensive Brainwashing or crazy, psychic powers, as it should.
But for my money, the best has to be the Chi Condition system found in Weapons of the Gods and Legends of the Wulin. It creates a system of incentives and disincentives to do what you want. The lady can let herself be seduced by you OR she suffers some kind of penalty (or she gains some bonus if she lets herself be seduced by you), which preserves character autonomy while always making sure that the successful social character gets something. This further ties into their "elemental cycle," so that the moment a chi condition comes into play, other social characters can play off of it, shifting it, spinning new chi conditions off of it, so her crush on you can be turned into an obsession, which can spawn jealous rages, which might power curses to afflict the other girl you're flirting with, which might make her paranoid, which is great, because I can use that paranoia to create a feeling of trust in my character...
Awesome system.
DW:AiTaS allows you to basically use social skills as full combat skills.
So if someone is shooting you you can use your skill in an opposed roll to talk them out of it. Was fast, simple and simulated the show.
Quote from: TristramEvans;680932:rolleyes:
Then the answer is NONE. Social combat systems are for the weak of mind and socially inept. They corrupt our children and weaken the resolve of our allies.
LOL Classic. This is better than anything I can think of to that effect.
Quote from: jhkim;680847Agreed that BW feels like a courtroom. On the other hand, that is a step up from some social combat systems that feel like physical combat.
FATE, for example, treats social interaction in the same way as physical combat in games like Dresden Files. I tried using the social combat rules a few times, but gave up on them. One issue is the effect of having an advantage in numbers. For a simple skill roll or other action, numbers don't add up linearly - i.e. to pick a lock, it doesn't add that much if anything for the thief to have the fighter and wizard helping. However, in combat numbers add linearly. Thus, a crowd who aren't particularly socially skilled can mob and wear down a skilled diplomat. That didn't work for me and made it a problem to set up any social conflicts.
It works well enough for RPG.net.
JG
Although FATE doesn't work for everybody, sometimes even for people that like it, I've found Diaspora's social combat rules to be interesting:
http://www.vsca.ca/Diaspora/diaspora-srd.html#social-combat
I really likeBurning Wheel's duel of wits. It's felt like a courtroom when that fit, or like two friends arguing over the right course of action, or two rivals for the love of another having a yelling match/fist fight.
Quote from: Kashirigi;681259Although FATE doesn't work for everybody, sometimes even for people that like it, I've found Diaspora's social combat rules to be interesting:
http://www.vsca.ca/Diaspora/diaspora-srd.html#social-combat
We had some incredibly fun sessions with it during playtest, but the best ones were a lot more abstract than "I try to convince the king his brother's a dick." Broad political intrigue, a murder mystery, a research program... like that. The characters aren't always (or usually even) central when it works best, which is how we avoid the company of newbs wearing down an expert.
Quote from: jhkim;680847Thus, a crowd who aren't particularly socially skilled can mob and wear down a skilled diplomat. That didn't work for me and made it a problem to set up any social conflicts.
That's what zone attacks are for. That and a stunt that gives the diplomat the ability to shrug off social consequences during an argument.
Social Combat in Amber (or Lords of Olympus) is awesome. Ditto for D&D (or Arrows of Indra). I love that its extremely freeform.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;682270Social Combat in Amber (or Lords of Olympus) is awesome. Ditto for D&D (or Arrows of Indra). I love that its extremely freeform.
RPGPundit
What are they like?
Quote from: Nexus;682277What are they like?
Little something called "roleplaying", you might have heard of it...
Quote from: RPGPundit;682629Little something called "roleplaying", you might have heard of it...
Why the attitude? I asked you a honest question.I haven't played D and D in almost 30 yrs so I dunno, it might have changed a bit from what I remember and I wasn't familiar with the other games you mentioned.
Quote from: Nexus;682634Why the attitude? I asked you a honest question.I haven't played D and D in almost 30 yrs so I dunno, it might have changed a bit from what I remember and I wasn't familiar with the other games you mentioned.
He's just cranky that some people use rules to adjudicate different spheres of play than he does. Som people prefer to have rules to adjudicate combat and to emulate certain skills and abilities, some people like to have rules to emulate diplomatic or social graces or persuasiveness.
Quote from: LordVreeg;682655He's just cranky that some people use rules to adjudicate different spheres of play than he does. Som people prefer to have rules to adjudicate combat and to emulate certain skills and abilities, some people like to have rules to emulate diplomatic or social graces or persuasiveness.
I'm definitely in the latter group. I really enjoy good social mechanics to round out the physical ones. It's a shame the subject has grown to be so divisive though. It's the new role playing vs roll playing.
Seduction Rules from james bond 007
And despite what pundit says the attribute auction from Amber , as it establishes social relationships between the PCs as a side effect of character generation.
I do like Diaspora's zone-based take on social combat in FATE, and find myself using it in other FATE games. It is a little DIY, but maybe it needs to be. I find it works better than the rigid "one size fits all" template approaches of Burning Empires (dunno if it's the same as BW, I don't own it) or Spycraft 2.0.
T5 ended my quest for such rules. Most impressive.
Quote from: jibbajibba;683459Seduction Rules from james bond 007
And despite what pundit says the attribute auction from Amber , as it establishes social relationships between the PCs as a side effect of character generation.
Can you and or pundit elaborate on this a bit?
I am assuming there is a debate there between auction good/auction bad?
Quote from: Bill;683501Can you and or pundit elaborate on this a bit?
I am assuming there is a debate there between auction good/auction bad?
Not quite we all think the auction is awesome although to a degree people run them slightly differently.
We all also agree that Amber produces the most immersive role playign experiences we have been involved in. Players are enthused contact each other away frotme h game table in character to discuss aspects of the game in character and produce masses of additional game material.
Now Pundit thinks that is either because its a great system or because it's a great system and he is an awesome GM. I think that a very important part of the depth of roleplay in amber is due to the auction and the way characters are created.
An overview of the auction in case you weren't familiar.
For each of the amber stats , Warfare, Strength, Psyche and Endurance (though I add Sucession and Political Influence as well as 2 additional stats and some GMs split some of the 4 stats diffeently) the GM runs an auction.
The auction starts with the GM describing what the stat does and what its for, and again some GMs have different takes on some stats, but basically this is a salses pitch for why Endurance (or Psyche, or Warfare or Strength) are hte most important statistic. The players then record an opening bid in secret and then the GM runs an auction. The precise format of the auction may vary but central to it and here is where I think its great for setting up Social interaction the players bid agianst each other.
the auction sets up the rivalries and interaction for the entire game. The PC that doesn't quite secure a top score in warfare becuase they want to save poitns for Strength will alwasy be a PC who compromises their positiona nd looks to borad solutions not narrow ones. The one that Maxes out psyche will be labelled a sorcerer and probably tainted by chaos and not to be trusted.
Its a meta level concept but I feel it influences all social interaction between PCs in the game from that point onwards.
There tend to be a couple of problems with most social combat systems.
First, they're trying to model the extremely complicated nuances of social interaction within highly abstract systems. The same thing is true of physical combat, but we're trained from a relatively young age to process and accept abstract models of physical systems. On a deep, instinctual level, however, we're all wired to recognize "people acting weird" and a lot of social combat systems produce a multitude of uncanny valley effects.
Second, the gameplay in an RPG is literally "making decisions as your character". Social combat mechanics frequently take that decision making capacity away from the player. It puts players in a position where they're no longer playing the game. Physical combat systems can ultimately do the same thing (by knocking the PC out or killing them), but social combat systems tend to also take the next step of making decisions for the PC -- the game starts playing itself. This is problematic for a lot of players, particularly those into deep character immersion. "My character wouldn't do that!" is frustrating for almost every roleplayer and for some it can be destructive to their experience long after any given social combat encounter comes to an end.
With all of that being said, the best social combat system I've encountered is the one in Technoir. Unfortunately, there's really no way to port its model to other games because it's intimately tied to what makes Technoir unique (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/9595/roleplaying-games/technoir-sequences-vs-skill-challenges).
In Technoir actions are resolving by pushing adjectives onto other characters: So if you wanted to shoot someone, you wouldn't inflict hit point damage on them. Instead, you'd make an action check to see if you could apply an adjective like "lamed" or "bleeding" or "injured" onto them. The same system applies to every conflict in the game: If you want to hack someone's personal network, you'd push "exploited" onto it. Similarly you can push adjectives like "intimidated", "frightened", "charmed", or "trusting" onto other characters through social interactions.
The system works because these adjectives inform the players about the character's current status, but they never take away agency: A frightened character, for example, can still choose to pull out his gun and take a shot. His hand will be shaking as he does it (that's the mechanical impact of the adjective), but the ultimate decision-making is never taken away from the player.
Quote from: jibbajibba;683510Not quite we all think the auction is awesome although to a degree people run them slightly differently.
We all also agree that Amber produces the most immersive role playign experiences we have been involved in. Players are enthused contact each other away frotme h game table in character to discuss aspects of the game in character and produce masses of additional game material.
Now Pundit thinks that is either because its a great system or because it's a great system and he is an awesome GM. I think that a very important part of the depth of roleplay in amber is due to the auction and the way characters are created.
An overview of the auction in case you weren't familiar.
For each of the amber stats , Warfare, Strength, Psyche and Endurance (though I add Sucession and Political Influence as well as 2 additional stats and some GMs split some of the 4 stats diffeently) the GM runs an auction.
The auction starts with the GM describing what the stat does and what its for, and again some GMs have different takes on some stats, but basically this is a salses pitch for why Endurance (or Psyche, or Warfare or Strength) are hte most important statistic. The players then record an opening bid in secret and then the GM runs an auction. The precise format of the auction may vary but central to it and here is where I think its great for setting up Social interaction the players bid agianst each other.
the auction sets up the rivalries and interaction for the entire game. The PC that doesn't quite secure a top score in warfare becuase they want to save poitns for Strength will alwasy be a PC who compromises their positiona nd looks to borad solutions not narrow ones. The one that Maxes out psyche will be labelled a sorcerer and probably tainted by chaos and not to be trusted.
Its a meta level concept but I feel it influences all social interaction between PCs in the game from that point onwards.
I can see that helping to entwine the characters together. However, can't you do that without an auction?
I am fine with the auction, and diceless roleplay by the way.
Looking forward to someday actually playing Olympus, Amber, or Nobilus.
As a big fan of greek mythology, Olympus has the advantage :)
Quote from: Bill;683523I can see that helping to entwine the characters together. However, can't you do that without an auction?
I am fine with the auction, and diceless roleplay by the way.
Looking forward to someday actually playing Olympus, Amber, or Nobilus.
As a big fan of greek mythology, Olympus has the advantage :)
Yes I think you can do it without an auction but makign character generation a social process that impacts both the Players and their PCs has interesting effects both in terms on identification between player and their PC and in inter PC interaction.
I built a social process for a board game using a trait called Guile.
There were 9 Guile cards Each identifeid in reasonable elaborate ways (eg 1: Om, the Staff, Consciousness. 2: Deva, the Sereph, Action, etc ) the defender selected 1 the attacker then got to make a number of guesses based on the difference in Guile so 1 less guile got 1 guess, equal got 2 then + 1 guess for each additional (Guile ranked 1-5) to select the one chosen.
The nature of the cards and the selction process made it a pretty fun mechanic.
Thinking about auctions I could see an RPG that gave PCs a pool of points to use in each scene and you could use those points to do a variety of things from social interaction to combat to skill checks. The limit on the pool would mean you needed to decide how to spend points each time pursuade the guard? all out attack? spilthe pool, take a 3rd or a 4th action?
I personally woudl only entertain it where the in game reality mirrored the system, ie as in Amber where Amberites can change reality in an almost 'sotrygame way' but only because the actual PCs possess that ability.
Maybe a gamewhere PCs control remote avatars, or are emeshes in some sort of controlled virtual space etc.
Quote from: Bill;683501Can you and or pundit elaborate on this a bit?
I am assuming there is a debate there between auction good/auction bad?
I don't think there's a debate there. I think the Auction is awesome, and there's no question that it creates background-relationships between the participants. How that means its a "social combat system" is beyond me, though. That would be like saying that Traveller's lifepath character-creation system is a social combat system.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;683864I don't think there's a debate there. I think the Auction is awesome, and there's no question that it creates background-relationships between the participants. How that means its a "social combat system" is beyond me, though.
I agree that it's not a social combat system.
I do think it's an example of taking an activity that might normally be done with informal discussion or collaboration ("Hey, who wants to be the strongest child of Oberon?") and resolves it using a potentially competitive procedure. (By comparison, Dungeon World suggests that there be only one of each class in each party, which is a similar sort of restriction, it just leaves the group to figure this out using unstructured discussion and expression of preferences.)
So it's a little like a social combat system for players, rather than their characters. This is obviously not a crisp category of thing, since if you squint just a little bit more, pretty much any 'mechanic' falls into this category.
Quote from: jibbajibba;683459Seduction Rules from james bond 007
That's the perfect example right there. A James Bond adaptation without seduction rules is like a fantasy game without rules for hitting people with swords.
QuoteAnd despite what pundit says the attribute auction from Amber , as it establishes social relationships between the PCs as a side effect of character generation.
Great point there.
JG
Quote from: fuseboy;683886I agree that it's not a social combat system.
I do think it's an example of taking an activity that might normally be done with informal discussion or collaboration ("Hey, who wants to be the strongest child of Oberon?") and resolves it using a potentially competitive procedure. (By comparison, Dungeon World suggests that there be only one of each class in each party, which is a similar sort of restriction, it just leaves the group to figure this out using unstructured discussion and expression of preferences.)
So it's a little like a social combat system for players, rather than their characters. This is obviously not a crisp category of thing, since if you squint just a little bit more, pretty much any 'mechanic' falls into this category.
OK, well to be more precise, any bidding contest is more of a social
game for the participants. It's not necessarily anything that hinges on how their characters' social skills affect NPCs or each other.
JG
Quote from: RPGPundit;683864I don't think there's a debate there. I think the Auction is awesome, and there's no question that it creates background-relationships between the participants. How that means its a "social combat system" is beyond me, though. That would be like saying that Traveller's lifepath character-creation system is a social combat system.
RPGPundit
Both of which are awesome as character generation systems. The only flaw with the auction is what to do with new players. But as a way of forcing people to make trade-offs it is absolutely cool.
Many players handle 'competative' well, others....uh oh! reverting to childhood!!!!
"Omg! something bad happened to my character!!!!"
That being said, I do get irritated when other pc's pickpocket or steal from me :)
The importance of social mechanics to me is not so much adjudicating against the players but figuring out how to fairly adjudicate social interactions a lá Game of Thrones. Generally, a simple Charisma check will suffice, but one of my players is such a good roleplayer that I feel like I give him his way too often.
Quote from: Archangel Fascist;684266The importance of social mechanics to me is not so much adjudicating against the players but figuring out how to fairly adjudicate social interactions a lá Game of Thrones. Generally, a simple Charisma check will suffice, but one of my players is such a good roleplayer that I feel like I give him his way too often.
Tell him to roleplay his charisma and social skills if they exist in the version you are using.
After all, if a character is a 3 charisma, 3 Intelligence lowborn brute, he should not be roleplaying as a handsome nobleman with a silver tongue.
Drastic example, but arn't you supposed to roleplay the actual character?
Quote from: Settembrini;683495T5 ended my quest for such rules. Most impressive.
Will look.
Quote from: fuseboy;683886I agree that it's not a social combat system.
I do think it's an example of taking an activity that might normally be done with informal discussion or collaboration ("Hey, who wants to be the strongest child of Oberon?") and resolves it using a potentially competitive procedure. (By comparison, Dungeon World suggests that there be only one of each class in each party, which is a similar sort of restriction, it just leaves the group to figure this out using unstructured discussion and expression of preferences.)
I don't see how that's "similar" at all. What Amber does amounts to "let's make a list of who has the best, second, third-best, etc. Strength attribute", not "only one person can be a cleric!".
*shrug* Amber has roles of durable value - who is the peerless swordsman? Who has unmatched psychic powers? That's all I'm talking about.
Quote from: Bill;683523I can see that helping to entwine the characters together. However, can't you do that without an auction?
Sure. You can do almost everything an RPG does mechanically without mechanics. But the auction is both fun to play and creates mechanical structures that will continue to influence play throughout
One of my particular memories of Amber is from an online throne war I ran many moons ago. The players wanted to run the auction via e-mail and closed bids. After several debates I convinced them to let me run the auction via mIRC. The result was every player saying, "You were right. That was awesome!"
What the auction mechanic does brilliantly is to create a real world social interaction between the players (the high tension stakes of a real time auction) and use that to fuel the creation of real relationships between the PCs. Like most character creation mechanics it's heavily dissociated, but the pay-off is fantastic and jibbajibba is right about the positive effect it has on Amber. Whenever I get tempted to run an Amber campaign again, it's the auction that I'm primarily thinking of.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;684995Sure. You can do almost everything an RPG does mechanically without mechanics. But the auction is both fun to play and creates mechanical structures that will continue to influence play throughout
One of my particular memories of Amber is from an online throne war I ran many moons ago. The players wanted to run the auction via e-mail and closed bids. After several debates I convinced them to let me run the auction via mIRC. The result was every player saying, "You were right. That was awesome!"
What the auction mechanic does brilliantly is to create a real world social interaction between the players (the high tension stakes of a real time auction) and use that to fuel the creation of real relationships between the PCs. Like most character creation mechanics it's heavily dissociated, but the pay-off is fantastic and jibbajibba is right about the positive effect it has on Amber. Whenever I get tempted to run an Amber campaign again, it's the auction that I'm primarily thinking of.
I will have to try it out if I can purge pathfinder and 4e from the death grip it has on them.