Inspired by the other thread...what are some games that have especially good rules for fighting stuff?
Here is my subjective list:
-RuneQuest (MRQ2, RQ6). I have always liked BRP and older versions of RuneQuest, but Combat Maneuvers made it even better, they gave more variety and spice to combat. Using a shield gives a big advantage.
-Rolemaster (RM2). I love the idea of splitting your combat skill into OB and DB, and how useful shields are. And criticals. I love them.
-The Riddle of Steel. For the same reasons I like Rolemaster. You have to split your combat dice pool into attack and defense, and the damage chart is very similar to RM criticals. I also like combat maneuvers.
-Usagi Yojimbo (Sanguine versions). The combat system is pure chanbara, enemies are knocked down with just one stroke (and sometimes your character is :D).
-Capitán Alatriste RPG. Combat maneuvers. How dangerous combat feels.
From my list, one can infer the following points:
-I like combat maneuvers.
-I like criticals.
-It bugs me when shields are not useful.
Disclaimer: Although I have had mock combats in The Riddle of Steel, I must confess I have not actually played it. I have played the other games I mentioned.
Runequest 6 is exceptional in that regard. It has so-called "special effects" which are fencing manoeuvres, activated when you gain significant advantage over your opponent.
It is interesting that you chose them after you roll - either as an attacker or a defender. They are not all about maximize damage (but you can do that too, of course) or doing harm, but some of them enable you to (for example) overextend,trip, disarm your opponent, take his weapon, stun one of his body part, outmanoeuvre multiple opponents. So it's absolutely possible to end the fight without killing or heavily wounding your enemy.
I like combat where tactical choices matter and where every fight could result in death at a moment's notice. I want the decision to fight to be a serious one that isn't taken lightly.
I really like the Cyberpunk 2020 combat rules. They are tactical, gritty, and can be very deadly.
Rolemaster or MERP for similar reasons.
Combat in ORE is really bloody but is also quick. Combining initiative and the 'to hit' roll together works really well, and I love how intuitive and deceptively simple the expert dice and master dice mechanics are.
For pure tactical combat, I like GURPS.
1 second combat turns.
Active defense
HP/wounds do not scale with fighting ability
facing matters
being outnumbered, even by scrubs matters
Hârnmaster's injury system is pretty wonderful. The combat system is novel (or was) and fun as well.
Especially good is debateable, but I like Dragon Age's 'Stunt' system.
Essentially it replaces a classic critical hit system with combat and non combat options you select on the fly when you get a 'critical'
In practice, it is quite fun.
Quote from: Brad J. Murray;681577Hârnmaster's injury system is pretty wonderful. The combat system is novel (or was) and fun as well.
Having never played Harnmaster but always been interested in it...in what way is it novel?
For detailed and tactical combat I prefer GURPS.
For fast fun combat I prefer D&D.
For crazy unpredictable combat I prefer Rolemaster. :D
RPGs with well designed combat systems and which I have personal experience with.
Harnmaster
The most brutal of the lot and only one I found to consistently enhance immersion due to its simple and effective method of listing individual wounds.
GURPS
GURPS Combat has three levels of increasing detail.
Basic Combat - Attack, Defend, and damage rules
Tactical Combat - takes the above and adds facing rules and a tactical hex grid.
Martial Arts - provides dozens of specific sub systems to simulate most of the world's martial arts; armed and unarmed. There are a handful of rules that extend the core GURPS combat rules. The rest consists of short paragraphs summarizing the modifiers and steps to resolve specific types of martial arts techniques.
Hackmaster 5th edition
Noted for not using combat rounds. Instead each action takes so many second and combat is managed by counting up. When you reach your count you can act. This results in a higher count which is the next time you can act.
Dungeon Crawl Classic RPG.
An simplified 3.X D&D combat system that has been modifed with even more funky dice and crazy ass crit tables. The result is very immersive of the swords & sorcery genre that inspired the game.
Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition
Effectively presents a very detailed tactical system that can be learned by the most gamers. Unfortunately it is only used to represent high powered high fantasy combat.
Quote from: noisms;681588Having never played Harnmaster but always been interested in it...in what way is it novel?
First of Harnmaster uses d100 like Rolemaster and Runequest. Like Runequest you are trying to roll under a skill and lower is better. There are four results crit success, success, failure, and crit failure. Any roll ending in a 0 or 5 is a critical. If lower than a crit success, if higher a crit failure.
It doesn't use hit points. Instead you take injury which subtracts from your skill. The bad effects of injury are handle through characteristic saves resulting from the wound you take form a hit. Previous injury makes this roll worse resulting in an increased chance of failure. The type of save depends on the injury that you just took. There are marginal, serious, and grievous injury.
Unconsciousness, stumbling, fumbling, amputation, and death are all a result of failed saves. If somehow you keep managing to make your saves, your skill and physical characteristics (like movement, lifting, etc) keeps degrading from repeated injuries until you are failing or critical failing most of the time.
On reading the rules it seem complex but in practice it is very straight forward Columbia Games and N Robin Crossby (the original designer) came up with a brilliant presentation using two reference cards (http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf) and a front loaded character sheet. The result is something that resolves way faster than any other RPG with tactically detailed combat like GURPS, D&D 4e, Rolemaster, Runequest, etc.
The attacker rolls his skill, the defender pick a reaction and roll his defense. The result is cross indexed and the resulting impact and hit location is rolled. The armor is subtracted and you look how much injury to roll and what saves need to be rolled. With the reference cards in hand the process is a snap. Plus the cards can be downloaded and printed so every player can have one.
It even resolves faster than high level classic D&D combat, and can match mid level D&D combat. By resolving I mean how much of the session you spend in combat versus non combat roleplaying. Although character generation is very much slower than D&D.
The rules without magic or religion are only $10 from here (http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/zoom.cfg?product_id=4001L).
This is an actual play account of a Harnmaster session I ran.
http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2011/06/911-call-from-attic-repost.html
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;681480Inspired by the other thread...what are some games that have especially good rules for fighting stuff?
How exactly are you defining "good" in this context?
(This may be a very subjective question).
I like Burning Wheel here too. It's got three different ways to handle combat with increasing complexity. I also like Fate Core's conflict system.
Thanks for the replies everyone.
Quote from: ggroy;681646How exactly are you defining "good" in this context?
(This may be a very subjective question).
Yeah, it was a vague question. One reason that I haven't posted much in response is that I can't really pass judgment on anything any one has said for that reason...
I guess you could say games that do lots of different things fairly well, so good overall?
If I'd said 'fastest' or 'most realistic' or 'most tactical' or 'funnest' it'd be an easier question, but then the games people came up with would likely have that but be most likely bad in some other aspect.
Tactical - D&D4e - For purely tactical experience, 4e is hard to beat, provided the use of miniatures don't cause you issues. For something without miniatures, I would say Double Cross, Remnants and Warbirds would be a good choices with real tactics without the need for complex rules or visual aids.
Fast - Tenra Bansho Zero - Damage is calculated from the attack roll and defenders counterattack on successful defence, rolling 4 to 6 rolls into just 2, makes it very fast.
Fun - Tenra Bansho Zero - The way Karma escalates dice pools, the way you can give and pass bennies, the character options, the damage system and the Dead Box, the Moment of Truth and NPC rules all add up to make TBZ the most fun combat I have experienced.
Realistic - Riddle of Steel - This is not a category I am value that highly but I remember Riddle of Steel feeling very realistic in play. Millennium's End also scored highly here.
Overall - Tenra Bansho Zero - It wins on fast and fun and scores very well on tactical if a PC wants to be tactical, yet remain considerate of the GM.
Quote from: Claudius;681534-RuneQuest (MRQ2, RQ6). I have always liked BRP and older versions of RuneQuest, but Combat Maneuvers made it even better, they gave more variety and spice to combat. Using a shield gives a big advantage.
Quote from: Nadiv;681538Runequest 6 is exceptional in that regard. It has so-called "special effects" which are fencing manoeuvres, activated when you gain significant advantage over your opponent.
Another vote for
RuneQuest 6. It has the best combat system (hands down) of any I've played.
I enjoyed Rolemaster and MERP back in the day. I especially loved the extensive critical hits charts.
Fantasy Dice from Radical Approach is excellent. Add in Trauma to ramp up the detail.
http://www.radicalapproach.co.uk/
Quote from: Eisenmann;681835Fantasy Dice from Radical Approach is excellent. Add in Trauma to ramp up the detail.
http://www.radicalapproach.co.uk/
I've downloaded the free Turbo Dice thingy for a looksee, thanks. (Not the whole thing I know, but its interesting).
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;681843I've downloaded the free Turbo Dice thingy for a looksee, thanks. (Not the whole thing I know, but its interesting).
No prob. Glad to share.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;681824Thanks for the replies everyone.
Yeah, it was a vague question. One reason that I haven't posted much in response is that I can't really pass judgment on anything any one has said for that reason...
I guess you could say games that do lots of different things fairly well, so good overall?
If I'd said 'fastest' or 'most realistic' or 'most tactical' or 'funnest' it'd be an easier question, but then the games people came up with would likely have that but be most likely bad in some other aspect.
In other words, "good".
Quote from: estar;681610First of Harnmaster uses d100 like Rolemaster and Runequest. Like Runequest you are trying to roll under a skill and lower is better. There are four results crit success, success, failure, and crit failure. Any roll ending in a 0 or 5 is a critical. If lower than a crit success, if higher a crit failure.
It doesn't use hit points. Instead you take injury which subtracts from your skill. The bad effects of injury are handle through characteristic saves resulting from the wound you take form a hit. Previous injury makes this roll worse resulting in an increased chance of failure. The type of save depends on the injury that you just took. There are marginal, serious, and grievous injury.
Unconsciousness, stumbling, fumbling, amputation, and death are all a result of failed saves. If somehow you keep managing to make your saves, your skill and physical characteristics (like movement, lifting, etc) keeps degrading from repeated injuries until you are failing or critical failing most of the time.
On reading the rules it seem complex but in practice it is very straight forward Columbia Games and N Robin Crossby (the original designer) came up with a brilliant presentation using two reference cards (http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf) and a front loaded character sheet. The result is something that resolves way faster than any other RPG with tactically detailed combat like GURPS, D&D 4e, Rolemaster, Runequest, etc.
The attacker rolls his skill, the defender pick a reaction and roll his defense. The result is cross indexed and the resulting impact and hit location is rolled. The armor is subtracted and you look how much injury to roll and what saves need to be rolled. With the reference cards in hand the process is a snap. Plus the cards can be downloaded and printed so every player can have one.
It even resolves faster than high level classic D&D combat, and can match mid level D&D combat. By resolving I mean how much of the session you spend in combat versus non combat roleplaying. Although character generation is very much slower than D&D.
The rules without magic or religion are only $10 from here (http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/zoom.cfg?product_id=4001L).
This is an actual play account of a Harnmaster session I ran.
http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2011/06/911-call-from-attic-repost.html
Nice. I'll check it out.
Iron Kingdoms is by far the most fun and engagement (pun not intended) I've ever had in combats.
Rolemaster is best for the "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT" and "haha you did WHAT?" factors.
Quote from: Claudius;681534Here is my subjective list:
-RuneQuest (MRQ2, RQ6). I have always liked BRP and older versions of RuneQuest, but Combat Maneuvers made it even better, they gave more variety and spice to combat. Using a shield gives a big advantage.
-Rolemaster (RM2). I love the idea of splitting your combat skill into OB and DB, and how useful shields are. And criticals. I love them.
-The Riddle of Steel. For the same reasons I like Rolemaster. You have to split your combat dice pool into attack and defense, and the damage chart is very similar to RM criticals. I also like combat maneuvers.
-Usagi Yojimbo (Sanguine versions). The combat system is pure chanbara, enemies are knocked down with just one stroke (and sometimes your character is :D).
-Capitán Alatriste RPG. Combat maneuvers. How dangerous combat feels.
From my list, one can infer the following points:
-I like combat maneuvers.
-I like criticals.
-It bugs me when shields are not useful.
Disclaimer: Although I have had mock combats in The Riddle of Steel, I must confess I have not actually played it. I have played the other games I mentioned.
we agree heavily. I like shields, or 2 handed weapon use, or one handed weapon use, all to have very clear, obvious advantages.
I like combat maneuvers and tactics. I like it when a character can choose to set to receive a charge, or to try to charge, but also when their are skills to augment this.
I dislike combat turns in my more advanced combat systems, preferring continuous initiative.
I like games that allow characters to get a lot better yes still be one-shotted by an orc arrow to the eye. (sorry, but you asked).
I dislike blanket AC, but like avoidance and protection to be 2 separate things.
Quote from: estar;681610First of Harnmaster uses d100 like Rolemaster and Runequest. Like Runequest you are trying to roll under a skill and lower is better. There are four results crit success, success, failure, and crit failure. Any roll ending in a 0 or 5 is a critical. If lower than a crit success, if higher a crit failure.
It doesn't use hit points. Instead you take injury which subtracts from your skill. The bad effects of injury are handle through characteristic saves resulting from the wound you take form a hit. Previous injury makes this roll worse resulting in an increased chance of failure. The type of save depends on the injury that you just took. There are marginal, serious, and grievous injury.
Unconsciousness, stumbling, fumbling, amputation, and death are all a result of failed saves. If somehow you keep managing to make your saves, your skill and physical characteristics (like movement, lifting, etc) keeps degrading from repeated injuries until you are failing or critical failing most of the time.
On reading the rules it seem complex but in practice it is very straight forward Columbia Games and N Robin Crossby (the original designer) came up with a brilliant presentation using two reference cards (http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf) and a front loaded character sheet. The result is something that resolves way faster than any other RPG with tactically detailed combat like GURPS, D&D 4e, Rolemaster, Runequest, etc.
The attacker rolls his skill, the defender pick a reaction and roll his defense. The result is cross indexed and the resulting impact and hit location is rolled. The armor is subtracted and you look how much injury to roll and what saves need to be rolled. With the reference cards in hand the process is a snap. Plus the cards can be downloaded and printed so every player can have one.
It even resolves faster than high level classic D&D combat, and can match mid level D&D combat. By resolving I mean how much of the session you spend in combat versus non combat roleplaying. Although character generation is very much slower than D&D.
The rules without magic or religion are only $10 from here (http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/zoom.cfg?product_id=4001L).
This is an actual play account of a Harnmaster session I ran.
http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2011/06/911-call-from-attic-repost.html
I went out of my way to acquire a copy of Harnmaster recently; I had remembered its magic system and setting as being exceptional but had forgotten how detailed its combat was. The individuals wounds were a lot better at creating engagement and I have been thinking about trying to get some players to experiment.
The complete lack of a monster manual was unfortunate, though.
DCC's combat system is awesome.
Overall best that emulates the genre - Mekton II and Mekton Zeta, no other game can bring anime giant robot action like them.
Sheer lethality that surprises Players - Traveller 4 and Mongoose Traveller, I like how you have to not only hit, but also penetrate armor to cause damage, even though that does not matter so much when you are using a FGMP-15. Also, I just love watching the expressions change on Players' faces when they suddenly understand that Combat Is Dangerous.
Second best that emulates the genre - d6 Star Wars, it is fast and just deadly enough like the films and in a way that the d20 system could not match.
Most amusing critical and fumble tables - Rolemaster/MERP.
Most confusing to read but useable for modern weapons in d20 systems - d20 Traveller, I had to read through the rules multiple times before I got it, but once I used them in a combat they worked smoothly and elegantly. Far better than any other adaptation of the d20 system for modern firearms.