Quote from: jeff37923I can't say anything about Indiana Jones or Skull & Crossbones because I've never read or played them. I'd say that Star Frontiers was neutral, because humans were just one of four "good guy" races.

I don't really recall the Indiana Jones game that well myself, aside from the color coded chart (or was that Boot Hill?) but Skull & Crossbones was a very barebones RPG set aboard (most of the time) a pirate ship with a, largely, democratic crew.  The players had to work together, or at least cooperate, othewise their crew and ship would end up on the bottom of Davey Jone's locker.

Quote from: jeff37923Space Opera? I don't see how you could figure out kind of bias it had because it was so badly written to begin with. IMHO, the only thing good about any Space Opera product was the Jeff Dee artwork that it had.

I've always heard good things about Space Opera, granted that was years ago, but didn't it have a human-centric game universe?

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaReally, it seems to me that the more managable task is to tally up the games that are explicitly or implicitly "anti-human", and by that we have to clarify whether we mean either "lacking the means to control their own destiny", "serving as foils or chattel for the non-human or in-human main characters", or simply "not about humans".

What about the original D&D games with their arbitrary level advancement limits on non-human characters?  The rules more or less stacked the deck in the favor of human characters.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaMost RPGs are just about people going out adventuring, some of whom may be non-human.  Some games, mostly appearing within the last 15 years, deal with humanity's secret lords or humanity's predators as player characters, and outside of WW's games there really aren't that many.  A relatively small handful of games deal purposefully and exclusively with non-humans, of which GURPS: Goblins is my personal favorite.

There's also been a few furry games.  And, of course, a few space opera games invert the usual human empire model in favor of a universe where humans are barely second class citizens; Nebuleon, for instance, actually refers to humans as galactic "cockroaches".

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAll that said, if you're looking for a game that focuses specifically on the human condition where humans are the singular be-all and end-all of the game, then my personal list is pretty short:

• Unknown Armies, where every bit of weirdness and juju out there derives solely from the human condition.

What about super hero games?  Wouldn't those be the perfect example?

A close second would have to be the old cold war era espionage games.

Quote from: RPGPunditit certainly doesn't have an anti-human bias IMO, very few games actually do.

Right, just the ones you have a frothing, irrational hatred for.

Quote from: BrantaiRight, just the ones you have a frothing, irrational hatred for.

All of my hatreds are entirely rational.  But of the games I have a frothing hatred for, there are quite a few that are in no way anti-humanity. They just suck for other reasons.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kester PelagiusI've always heard good things about Space Opera, granted that was years ago, but didn't it have a human-centric game universe?

The game universe wasn't humanocentric, but several interstellar governments were comprised entirely of aliens (usually set-up in the good guy aliens or bad guy aliens template).

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I dunno, is Pundit gonna argue with me on THAT, too?

I hope not.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!That, however, is hard to game.  Guns, drugs chases and gadgets are easier to plot for, so...that gets done most often.  I'm not saying it's bad; I'm not saying that at all.  But I think the genre has a lot of potential to act as a lens under which to examine ourselves, as most SF can, and it's a potential that is often unrealized at the table by necessity.

This is why I wanted to get your input on the subject.

I agree that Cyberpunk 2020 could be either pro- or anti- humanity based on how it was played. Apparently, based on the introduction to Cybergeneration written by Mike Pondsmith and the writers at R. Talsorian Games, they also agreed with Dr Rotwang!

In the introduction to Cybergeneration, the creators bemoaned what they saw in the players of their game of Cyberpunk at conventions. The typical player had munchkinised their character to the point where the PC was nothing more than a well-financed, well-connected, corporate killing machine with just enough cybernetics grafted on to keep him on the edge of cyberpsychosis (without going over, of course). They believed that this was the "edge" (anti-humanity), but not the "street" (pro-humanity) that they wanted to bring to players. So they produced a game set in the same Cyberpunk universe, but with limitations on PCs so that a more pro-humanity and role-playing approach could be taken.

Actually, any of my games, except Blood Games and Book of Jalan, and you can play perfectly normal people in them too, as viable characters, if you want - even if everyone else is playing Splorg the Vampire Killer.

-clash

Oh yeah, I forgot one:
   Promethean: The Created

You may not start out human, but it's the only WW game where coming closer to humanity is the goal. And if anything says "Yay Humanity!" to me, it's that.

*steps up to the mic*

Legend of the Five Rings, which holds as the greatest teaching of its in-setting spiritual master "a mortal soul is a power that can change the universe".

I'm sure the fact there's an Emperor and peasants means it doesn't qualify, though, sharing its anti-human bias with history.

That's silly, Christmas Ape. Everyone knows peasents arn't people.

Quote from: chaosvoyagerOh yeah, I forgot one:
   Promethean: The Created

You may not start out human, but it's the only WW game where coming closer to humanity is the goal. And if anything says "Yay Humanity!" to me, it's that.

 That must be the one possible exception to that company's whole default universe.

 I was bored one day the first week that PROMETHEAN appeared. That opening obligatory story was an alright read . Don't know how in  the hell you can get that to work in group roleplay tho.


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarThat must be the one possible exception to that company's whole default universe.

Eh, apart from the fact that the nWoD corebook is dedicated solely to playing mortals, mages are also human, and reclaiming your old life is going to be a major theme in Changeling.

Quote from: Thanatos02That's silly, Christmas Ape. Everyone knows peasents arn't people.

You're thinking of eta.

Quote from: Christmas ApeYou're thinking of eta.

I'm thinking of voters!

Naw, I'm playing.