Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Cyberpunk, if you play it right.

Hate to drag you back into the conversation, Doc, but could you clarify that statement a little bit? How could Cyberpunk be played to be pro-humanity and how could it be played to be anti-humanity? Do you feel that Cybergeneration is a pro-humanity game and if so, why or why not?

Quote from: Kester PelagiusI'll second Gamma World and, if it hasn't already been mentioned, The Morrow Project.  While I've never played the latter what I have heard of it has always intrigued me and it's one of the few RPGs I still wish I'd picked up back in the day.

What about Space Opera and Star Frontiers?  Or how about the old Indiana Jones RPG?

Skull & Crossbones?  (It was a pirate game of adventure on the Spanish Main from FGU circa the 80s.)

I can't say anything about Indiana Jones or Skull & Crossbones because I've never read or played them. I'd say that Star Frontiers was neutral, because humans were just one of four "good guy" races.

Space Opera? I don't see how you could figure out kind of bias it had because it was so badly written to begin with. IMHO, the only thing good about any Space Opera product was the Jeff Dee artwork that it had.

Quote from: KoltarC'mon!!  There must be more RPG books and settings out there that are PRO-Humans and Humanity.

:confused:

Really, it seems to me that the more managable task is to tally up the games that are explicitly or implicitly "anti-human", and by that we have to clarify whether we mean either "lacking the means to control their own destiny", "serving as foils or chattel for the non-human or in-human main characters", or simply "not about humans".  

Most RPGs are just about people going out adventuring, some of whom may be non-human.  Some games, mostly appearing within the last 15 years, deal with humanity's secret lords or humanity's predators as player characters, and outside of WW's games there really aren't that many.  A relatively small handful of games deal purposefully and exclusively with non-humans, of which GURPS: Goblins is my personal favorite.

All that said, if you're looking for a game that focuses specifically on the human condition where humans are the singular be-all and end-all of the game, then my personal list is pretty short:

• Unknown Armies, where every bit of weirdness and juju out there derives solely from the human condition
  
• Transhuman Space, where, as weird as things get, you're either a human or made by a human, and the game specifically explores the question of human identity in a rapidly-evolving world

The egoist in me wants to list Mariner, too, which will be essentially Traveller with the aliens and space travel filed off.  It's gaming in the real world of here-and-now.  I was tempted to list Twilight: 2000 for almost the same reasons, but I ultimately find that game to be an exploration of the failures of humanity, even though it's all about the human condition and there's plenty of opportunity to rise above the failures.  I simply reject the premise as too pessimistic.

!i!

It's possible to read and play Mage as being in favour of ordinary people determining the course of their lives, but it is a counter-reading to much of the game.

My vote is for Heavy Gear. Almost every setting book had a short discussion of how to play non-military characters in mundane-but-exciting jobs. In the Badlands book for example, the chapter fiction features a trio of characters who run cargo and provide medical assistance to desert travelers (the world Heavy Gear is set on has a large equatorial desert).

I know I throw Mercenaries, Spies, and Private Eyes around on these threads all the time, but it illustrates a salient point in the discussion. Characters emerging freshly from character generation are about as non-cinematic as any I've seen. Fist-fights aren't too bad, but weapons make combat very deadly, with no 'mook' rules or built-in advantage for the PCs. The characters are very human, at a normal human power level.

I love that. You can write very realistic adventures and know they'll be challenging. I had a PI character play two engaging, hysterical sessions trying to buy bullets for a an upcoming rendevous for which he wanted to be armed. No money; no bullets. It was sensational, but I wouldn't have put a player in that situation who couldn't take it.

I feel there are fewer and fewer players who can. I don't begrudge anyone the power-fantasy wish-fulfilment aspect of gaming--that's part of the fun. But the number of players for whom it's the only aspect that's fun seems to be increasing. I don't know if that's caused by poor adventure design, poor GMing for low-power characters, or just a long-term change in what players expect.

Quote from: jeff37923Hate to drag you back into the conversation, Doc, but could you clarify that statement a little bit? How could Cyberpunk be played to be pro-humanity and how could it be played to be anti-humanity? Do you feel that Cybergeneration is a pro-humanity game and if so, why or why not?

I dunno, is Pundit gonna argue with me on THAT, too?

I don't care enough about cyberpunk to argue about it.  And I can see how the game could be interpreted either way; it certainly doesn't have an anti-human bias IMO, very few games actually do.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jeff37923Hate to drag you back into the conversation, Doc, but could you clarify that statement a little bit? How could Cyberpunk be played to be pro-humanity and how could it be played to be anti-humanity? Do you feel that Cybergeneration is a pro-humanity game and if so, why or why not?

Yeah.  I'm only going off a hazy memory of Cyberpunk 2020, but I don't remember anything pro-human about it.  Maybe the writeup for the Policeman character template, but that's about it.  CP2020 doesn't have the Human+ PC's are above the human rabble though.

Cyberpunk as a genre, I can agree with though.  Again my hazy memory of Snow Crash tells me this.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Furthermore, consider Mage's Sons of Ether.  What were their dreams for humanity's ascendance?

Jetpacks.  Jetpacks, for everyone.

How is that anti-human?

Mutherfucking jetpacks! :: pumps fist ::

As a basic mechanic of the game, the more cybered-up you get, the less human you become, and there is an increasing chance that you will quite simply lose any sense of human morality, having essentially become a mechanical psychopath.  

The game places definite interest in understanding the nature of what it means to be human, not only mechanically with the cyberpsychosis stuff, but even the example fiction is essentially an SF treatment of the concept of the soul.

Quote from: RPGPunditOddsod's commentary on Mage:

Well, shit. If Oddsod said it, it must be true. I guess the arguments over! Oddsod weighed in against it!

Quote from: Thanatos02Well, shit. If Oddsod said it, it must be true. I guess the arguments over! Oddsod weighed in against it!

Excellent. I'm glad you agree.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit...it certainly doesn't have an anti-human bias IMO, very few games actually do.

I'm pleased that you agree with me.  One down.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditExcellent. I'm glad you agree.

RPGPundit

Actually, Oddsod has some good points. Also, if you have a real beef with post-modernism and deconstruction, I can imagine the furor over Mage. I think I made a statement about some of the racism in the WW lines, as well.

But, I'd argue that it wants to be humanist and succeeds. The rest of that shit is another issue.

Quote from: MoriartyCyberpunk as a genre, I can agree with though.  Again my hazy memory of Snow Crash tells me this.

Yeah, I meant the genre moreso than anything.

Here's my thing about cyberpunk: despite all the guns and the cyberware and the internet and the cool hairdos, the genre really, really, REALLY points up the human condition: to me, it has always been about what defines us as humans, from our foibles and our instincts up to our morals and our dreams.  Gibson's stuff, f'r'ex, really plays that up; "Burning Chrome" spends a good amount of energy talking about how Bobby is always looking for a girl to be his inspiration, and about how Jack feels for Rikki, and what he does for her after they burn chrome down.  His stuff always tasted of sweat and tears and perfume and the smell of new electronics right out of the styrofoam, and about who was there and what they wanted and what was wrong with them and what they did about it.  Visceral, but still...ethical.

That, however, is hard to game.  Guns, drugs chases and gadgets are easier to plot for, so...that gets done most often.  I'm not saying it's bad; I'm not saying that at all.  But I think the genre has a lot of potential to act as a lens under which to examine ourselves, as most SF can, and it's a potential that is often unrealized at the table by necessity.

EDIT: Pundit, yeah, you won the argument.  Whee!  Go you, or something.  The fact that my time's better wasted on other stuff need not tarnish your trophy.