Furthermore, consider Mage's Sons of Ether.  What were their dreams for humanity's ascendance?

Jetpacks.  Jetpacks, for everyone.

How is that anti-human?

You really do break the coolometer, Doc

Regards,
David R

Quote from: RPGPunditWell yes, a game that treats regular humanity as peasantry to be put into your service (Mage) is slightly better I'll admit than a game that treats humanity as food (Vampire) or as a pest to be exterminated in the name of the earth mother (Werewolf). But you can hardly consider any of those views "pro-humanity".

You seem to be missing the point that magic(k) is the birthright of each and every human being. If all Avatars in the world awaken, there will be no more "peasants": everyone will be a mage and godhood will lie within everyone's grasp. That's one possible form of a global Ascension. It has nothing to do with some people being "smarter" than others.

Look, in Mage, the Technocracy keeps everyone in the dark, right? They control the average humans and maintain this illusion of "the normal world" to keep control of things.

But why do they do that? Because prior to that, you had the Traditions running things, and you had wonderful stuff like the Black Death and people dying of starvation everywhere and the mages not giving a shit in their ivory towers.

The Traditions are pissed off at the Technocracy now not because they want to "liberate" everyone, but because they're pissed off at no longer running the show anymore. Their idea of "guiding" mankind was one where humans cowered in fear in mud huts and millions died from minor infections or the flu, all so that hermetic sorcerers would be able to cast Lightning Bolt a little bit easier.

Of course, being a WW game, the book takes the sides of the elitist fuckers over that of the "evil technocrats" because we all know science is EVIL, right kiddies?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditOf course, being a WW game, the book takes the sides of the elitist fuckers over that of the "evil technocrats" because we all know science is EVIL, right kiddies?

The Technocracy isn't the enemy because of the science that they use as a tool. They are the enemy because they are fascists. Originally they wanted to give the power to the common man, but then decided that the common man couldn't be trusted to govern his own life.

The Technocracy had their heads up their butts for sure, as did some of the Trads.  Idealists, all of them, if often misguided and thinking too hard.  But the real bad guys in Mage, as far as I was concerned, were the Nephandi -- they knew what they were doing was wrong, and they didn't care.

I'm pretty sure that Mage was, in its own text, described as a game about giving a damn.  You have this power now -- what are you going to do with it?

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I'm pretty sure that Mage was, in its own text, described as a game about giving a damn.  You have this power now -- what are you going to do with it?

"At its core, Mage is about giving a damn, about caring and believing in something so deeply that your beliefs can change reality." Yup: it's about the ultimate human potential, for good or ill, and the choices that you make. The same power that in different hands could make the world a better place can just as easily enslave and destroy. The game doesn't tell you what to do with it.

Oddsod's commentary on Mage:

QuoteMage is/was the worst for pretentious wannabe intellectuals, teenagers especially. Universities are the Pawns of the Technocracy, except when the professors (who are all saviors of the Real Intelligentsia, you know, instead of what they commonly are - liberal hippies who hide from reality on college campuses) excuse their classes full of bright-eyed Sleepers and Technocratic drones so that they can get on with teaching the REAL truths of Creation - discredited Victorian "science", Matrix-style computer hacking, Kwai Chang Kane Zen koans, and comic book occultism among other things. The writers neatly avoided the rigors of academia by claiming that all forms of academic regimentation, which are ridiculously scant in some fields already, were evil and Technocratic. Because y'know, there's also no tradition in history of people developing their own individual takes on things after spending a few years as a lab gopher or Greek chamberpot carrier or something. Christianity is basically the same as the universities - nothing the priest or reverend or whatever ever says at Mass is correct or good. It's only when the few priests who aren't Technocratic plants/brainwashed Sleepers/Inquisition agents/Nephandi kiddie rapers shut the doors and tell you all about the Sekrits Uv Da Lord that it's good for anything. All other organized religions are good Tradition religions, never mind that followers of every other organized religion on the planet have a history of being responsible for horrible atrocities. There have been wars conducted by supposedly devout Buddhists and Taoists, followers of possibly the most peaceful religions on the planet - yet that sort of thing never came up in the original Mage, because it would have detracted from the Pretentious Teenage Pseudo-Intellectual Hippie belief that all non-Christian religions are good and peaceful.

So if Mage is about "giving a damn", its only about that in the way fashionable college students "give a damn" about "social justice", la revolucion, etc etc. ad nauseum and think that by going on a couple of marches and bitching about McDonald's they're really making a difference, and should be patted on the back for caring about those fucking fuzzies down in latinamerica or africa or wherever the poor people are whose daddies can't pay for them to go to Oberlin.
Its fashionable upper-middle class college student elitist pretentious "giving a damn", not because you REALLY give a damn, but because pretending to really care about something gives you a chance to posture.

RPGPundit

Okay, I'm done talking to you about this, Pundit.

Good, that's one down.

RPGPundit

Think I'm accidentally on Pundit's side on this one. (Do we have to have sides?)

 When its slow at the store and I read through the World of Darkness stuff - ANY of it...its all pretty much "anti-Humanity" .

 C'mon!!  There must be more RPG books and settings out there that are PRO-Humans and Humanity.


- Ed C.

Conan!

OK, he's one exceptional human, but he is human.

Quote"A god," she whispered. "The Black people spoke of it -- a god from far away and long ago!"
"A devil from the Outer Dark," he grunted. "Oh, they're nothing uncommon. They lurk as thick as fleas outside the belt of light which surrounds this world. I've heard the wise men of Zamora talk of them. Some find their way to Earth, but when they do they have to take on some earthly form and flesh of some sort. A man like myself, with a sword, is a match for any amount of fangs and talons, infernal or terrestrial . . ."

Quote found in an article by G.W. Thomas.

I'll second Gamma World and, if it hasn't already been mentioned, The Morrow Project.  While I've never played the latter what I have heard of it has always intrigued me and it's one of the few RPGs I still wish I'd picked up back in the day.

What about Space Opera and Star Frontiers?  Or how about the old Indiana Jones RPG?

Skull & Crossbones?  (It was a pirate game of adventure on the Spanish Main from FGU circa the 80s.)

Jorune. With it's three branches of Humanity, Pure strain humans, Boccord and Muadra, the game is fairly human centric. The fact that there are detailed "alien" races and cultures does not detract from the fact that humans are the defacto shapers of the planet's destiny....even though they are not indigenous to the planet.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: darConan!

OK, he's one exceptional human, but he is human.



Quote found in an article by G.W. Thomas.

Having read the quote, I feel a mad desire for playing some Conan RIGHT NOW.