What games were in some sense or another a product of their time, and something about their setting or their style (this isn't a discussion about mechanics) make them seem amusingly or ridiculously dated these days?
RPGPundit
Most conspiracy type games are very painfully 90's. just something about the time.
ConX, Dark Matter, etc...
I'm tempted to say Twilight:2000 (as much as I love it) but I think given that it's been 30 years since we faced as big a TEOTWAWKI scenario as we did in that time, it's gone back around to being retro in a good way. It was a little harder to play it in the 90s when a mere handful of years prior the whole USSR had gone out of business...
VTM seems pretty dated.
Quote from: Piestrio;676076Most conspiracy type games are very painfully 90's. just something about the time.
ConX, Dark Matter, etc...
Unfortunately as good as some parts of it are, I'd have to add the overarching plot of "Y2k = STARS ARE RIGHT" element of Delta Green in there too.
Delta Green and Unknown Armies for reasons given.
Dragonlance. Once it was the bee's knees, now it's more velvet ya than Whoopi Goldberg.
Every word written by Gary Gygax.
WEG's Star Wars. No midichlorians, no Boba Fett clones, no JarJar Binks, there aren't even any rules for Trade Embargos! Doesn't even feel like Star Wars.
Oh oh oh, every fucking word of Cyberpunk:2020. And Shadowrun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GPGQoR6f6w
especially Shadowrun.
And just so we've covered anything, any game that has characters ramming 3mm mini-DIN connectors into the sides of their heads to interface with computers ('cause yeah the human brain - so much faster than a sixteen-core cheap-enough-to-be-disposable hobby board with a touchscreen running Android...), and pits them against "neo Soviets" or "Japanese Megacorp private cops" or that constant chestnut of all Gibson's bastard children of the RPG hobby, the US broken up into tiny nation states that would make the most jaded randroid cackle with glee. I think that pretty much handles the "cyberpunk" game genre.
Much of Delta Green.
The fundamental premise is sound (if derivative of Bureau 13). But the implementation. On the one hand, you have all these conspiracies about militias (which I guess to be fair, is always a major concern for left wingers when a Democrat is in offense, look at all the hyper ventilating they do about the Tea Party).
On the other, you have the Vampire/White Wolf style "cool" which really isn't anymore.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;676086Oh oh oh, every fucking word of Cyberpunk:2020. And Shadowrun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GPGQoR6f6w
especially Shadowrun.
And just so we've covered anything, any game that has characters ramming 3mm mini-DIN connectors into the sides of their heads to interface with computers ('cause yeah the human brain - so much faster than a sixteen-core cheap-enough-to-be-disposable hobby board with a touchscreen running Android...), and pits them against "neo Soviets" or "Japanese Megacorp private cops" or that constant chestnut of all Gibson's bastard children of the RPG hobby, the US broken up into tiny nation states that would make the most jaded randroid cackle with glee. I think that pretty much handles the "cyberpunk" game genre.
I dunno. I have been playing Shadowrun Returns, and it still has a certain amount of charm to it.
Quote from: Piestrio;676076Most conspiracy type games are very painfully 90's. just something about the time.
But does that make them less enjoyable to play? To me, that's part of the charm, like playing a spy game like Top Secret, or even an Old West game.
Shadowrun. One can tell it's definitely a product of the 80s. It didn't even get a wireless Internet until later Editions.
Deadlands. It's plausible that the designers made the Confederacy non-racist as part of making the setting friendlier to PCs who aren't white males.
BUT!
Look at the last 2 US Presidential elections: racist right-wingers are throwing around dog whistle politics, while at the same time insisting that the Confederacy's slavery was but a minor issue. Unsurprisingly the Neo-Confederate movement attracts a lot of white supremacists. The "happy, progressive" Confederacy idea becomes a lot less comfortable.
Quote from: Lynn;676089But does that make them less enjoyable to play? To me, that's part of the charm, like playing a spy game like Top Secret, or even an Old West game.
Oh sure, but it went from 'modern conspiracy' to 'period conspiracy' fairly quickly.
For Shadowrun, it's dated (retro nowadays I guess. X that makes me feel old) setting is part of the charm for me. In that manner I'd say 2nd edition has aged very well.
Agree with the Cyberpunk and Shadowrun (so 80s) and ConX and White Wolf (so 90s), and will add
- anything published as Amazing Engine (much as I like Kromosome)
- Mayfair's Chill. It catches a lot of the 90s X-Files flak, but it's also something in the (purple spattered) presentation that seems dated (and if system were not off-limits you could go to town).
- anything by Palladium. Just looks like an 80s game.
Also, much as I love 'em - Everway and Over The Edge. The former because of its new age feel; something about it evokes 90s Clive Barker fantasy, etc. The latter for similar reasons, but replace Clive Barker with David Lynch (and maybe Cronenberg). Any game which evokes a particular cult feel from a particular time is going to feel dated.
Special mention for Gary Gygax's Cyborg Commando, which is so dated it's like Gygax squared (like its dice mechanic)
Quote from: Libertad;676090Shadowrun. One can tell it's definitely a product of the 80s. It didn't even get a wireless Internet until later Editions.
SLA Industries is even worse, because it never had new editions advancing the timeline and technology. It's incredibly advanced in some places, in others... less so.
It's way past cybertech and deep into biotech, they can stick whatever the fuck they want in your skull, space travel is trivial, and they can get an ambulance to you in less than four minutes... across most of the world, anyway.
And when you're done, you can settle back to watch a movie on VHS.
(Of course, given the entire universe
in universe isn't quite real anyway, you don't really want to correct some things...)
Quote from: smiorgan;676097Agree with the Cyberpunk and Shadowrun (so 80s) and ConX and White Wolf (so 90s), and will add
- anything published as Amazing Engine (much as I like Kromosome)
- Mayfair's Chill. It catches a lot of the 90s X-Files flak, but it's also something in the (purple spattered) presentation that seems dated (and if system were not off-limits you could go to town).
- anything by Palladium. Just looks like an 80s game.
Also, much as I love 'em - Everway and Over The Edge. The former because of its new age feel; something about it evokes 90s Clive Barker fantasy, etc. The latter for similar reasons, but replace Clive Barker with David Lynch (and maybe Cronenberg). Any game which evokes a particular cult feel from a particular time is going to feel dated.
Special mention for Gary Gygax's Cyborg Commando, which is so dated it's like Gygax squared (like its dice mechanic)
The 80's: When every man had sunglasses, every woman had a perm, and EVERYBODY wore spandex.
JG
Quote from: thedungeondelver;676086https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GPGQoR6f6w
My favorite part of that is when they break into the TARDIS so that they can hack their way into the holodeck.
Quote from: James Gillen;676103The 80's: When every man had sunglasses, every woman had a perm, and EVERYBODY wore spandex.
The peak of Western civilisation!
A lot of the flavor assumed by 2ed is based on a sort of fantasy novel that a lot of people are sick of and that doesn't sell anywhere near as well as it used to.
Gamma World's junk tables - I'm thinking in particular of 4th Ed ('92) but I wouldn't be surprised if the earlier ones likewise - in amongst the conversion beamers and black ray rifles you find lots of tape-decks and similarly now-anachronistic items.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;676118Gamma World's junk tables - I'm thinking in particular of 4th Ed ('92) but I wouldn't be surprised if the earlier ones likewise - in amongst the conversion beamers and black ray rifles you find lots of tape-decks and similarly now-anachronistic items.
Indeed. However, I think some of those old things will survive, in landfills and thrift shops of the future--while our modern tech may just be burned out junk.
As to the Balkanization of the U.S: Scary thought, I run into the idea of secession a lot in Texas, and I've heard people talking about the idea that (conservative) rural people in some places (Colorado) are tired of their liberal city dwellers, making most of the political decisions because of their power base, and they to desire secession--but only from their own state.
So, its not quite so far fetched when you realize some people are just a might bit off the reality train.
In a world where Monsanto buys Blackwater, it's not the politics of cyberpunk games that is the problem.
Most of the classic cyberpunk games just suffer from some dated style and pop culture elements, as well of course as the dated computer tech and VR-era assumptions, but a lot of the rest isn't a problem because it's unrealistic but because it's too realistic while at the same time exaggerating the consequences of it.
CP style megacorps already exist, but it doesn't take dismantling the government to do it, because the government is an incredibly useful tool when properly manipulated.
Like all speculative fiction, some of it's not quite right, but a lot of other stuff got a lot closer than people are comfortable admitting and so it does wind up feeling almost a little squicky at times to think about.
Quote from: J Arcane;676153In a world where Monsanto buys Blackwater, it's not the politics of cyberpunk games that is the problem.
Most of the classic cyberpunk games just suffer from some dated style and pop culture elements, as well of course as the dated computer tech and VR-era assumptions, but a lot of the rest isn't a problem because it's unrealistic but because it's too realistic while at the same time exaggerating the consequences of it.
CP style megacorps already exist, but it doesn't take dismantling the government to do it, because the government is an incredibly useful tool when properly manipulated.
Like all speculative fiction, some of it's not quite right, but a lot of other stuff got a lot closer than people are comfortable admitting and so it does wind up feeling almost a little squicky at times to think about.
Yea. Sadly the dystopian aspects of Cyberpunk aren't the parts that have become dated.
On topic, I'm not a real Mage afficiando, but my impression is that M:tA really went in for 90s style postmodernism in way that might make it feel dated now.
Dark Conspiracy, as it turns out the greys and the tentacled aliens and the demons were all co-opted by Monsanto and the IMF and have been reduced to spraying chemi-trails and producing fake birth certificates for American presidents. Sigh...conspiracies ain't what they used to be no more.
On the other hand, its bleak future of ecological collapse and corporate democracy where welfare is run by corporations in exchange for votes, is still the scariest part of the game. Cyberpunk's all chrome and style. Dark Conspiracy's ragged paper coveralls and no running water.
Quote from: David Johansen;676158Dark Conspiracy, as it turns out the greys and the tentacled aliens and the demons were all co-opted by Monsanto and the IMF and have been reduced to spraying chemi-trails and producing fake birth certificates for American presidents.
Sigh...conspiracies ain't what they used to be no more.
X-Files and conspiracy theory stuff becoming widespread online during the 1990's, and later along with the 9-11 attacks, pretty much turned all that conspiracy crap into something pedestrian "mundane" and not scary at all.
Something that is "defanged" becoming a parody of itself. :rolleyes:
Classic Traveller hasn't aged well; its age started showing decades ago. Actually, the setting hasn't aged at all. Thirty-five years on, nothing has changed. In the OTU, nothing is allowed to change, forever and ever, amen. I've lost count of how many editions ported the OTU setting word for word into a different rules set.
*shrug* I don't know. I'm still enjoying Cyberpunk 2020 as a sort of alt-universe with weird science and tech, like say, I'd enjoy steampunk, or Ravenloft, or Castle Falkenstein or whatnot. I don't see a problem with it not being "realistic". It emulates its own universe well enough, It gained its own "retro" feel with time, which I find is a plus, not a minus, and games can be a lot of fun. That's all I need.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;676163Classic Traveller hasn't aged well; its age started showing decades ago. Actually, the setting hasn't aged at all. Thirty-five years on, nothing has changed. In the OTU, nothing is allowed to change, forever and ever, amen. I've lost count of how many editions ported the OTU setting word for word into a different rules set.
Mt, TN:E, T4 (Milieu 0), T20 (M: 1000); 4th imperium
nuff said and to the ignorelist with you!
OP: For some weird reasons, 2300 AD has aged worse than T:2000. Not entirely sure why.
4th Edition has also not aged well either, along with Sorceror.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;676086especially Shadowrun.
And just so we've covered anything, any game that has characters ramming 3mm mini-DIN connectors into the sides of their heads to interface with computers ('cause yeah the human brain - so much faster than a sixteen-core cheap-enough-to-be-disposable hobby board with a touchscreen running Android...), and pits them against "neo Soviets" or "Japanese Megacorp private cops" or that constant chestnut of all Gibson's bastard children of the RPG hobby, the US broken up into tiny nation states that would make the most jaded randroid cackle with glee. I think that pretty much handles the "cyberpunk" game genre.
You know, nowadays I just consider Shadowrun its own, "past´s future", genre, instead of sci-fi. Thus I continue having fun with it.
Gotta agree with all the posters who mentioned Delta Green and Over The Edge. Two of my absolute favorite games, but they don't feel right for this and age. Mobile phones for all, and that are actually mobile, alone can dramatically change the premises of these games!
That is why I generally do, like Jonathan Tweet suggests in his essay "Circa 1985" in the 20th anniversary edition of OtE, and sets the scene of these games in the time they were written; early to mid 90s generally. As this is also the years me and most of my friends started playing, it not really a stretch - we can relate to this period.
But I also look very much forward to, what they will do with the up coming and updated version of Delta Green. It will be very interesting to see what will happen with this 90s zeitgeisty conspiracy and how they'll change it.
Traveller's "70s...in...spaaaaaace!" vibe never bothered me. It's set far enough in the future that one can easily imagine some sort of Dark Ages period between now and then where a significant amount of current technical know-how gets lost or forgotten.
*facepalm*
Have you truly considered what TL-15 means?
Quote from: Settembrini;676190*facepalm*
Have you truly considered what TL-15 means?
The games I've played in were all about jumped up M-16s and computers the size of Buicks.:D
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;676163Classic Traveller hasn't aged well; its age started showing decades ago. Actually, the setting hasn't aged at all. Thirty-five years on, nothing has changed. In the OTU, nothing is allowed to change, forever and ever, amen. I've lost count of how many editions ported the OTU setting word for word into a different rules set.
So which is it? Has
Classic Traveller not aged well or has it aged at all? Because for the whole "nothing has changed" claim, I don't think you ever heard of The Rebellion or The Virus Era or Milleau Zero. The OTU covers a lot of time and a lot of space, enough room for a whole lot of differences in the same setting framework.
Quote from: Dimitrios;676184Traveller's "70s...in...spaaaaaace!" vibe never bothered me. It's set far enough in the future that one can easily imagine some sort of Dark Ages period between now and then where a significant amount of current technical know-how gets lost or forgotten.
Quote from: Dimitrios;676193The games I've played in were all about jumped up M-16s and computers the size of Buicks.:D
There was a Dark Ages known as The Long Nightof the OTU, but hand computers were present in
Classic Traveller that weren't the size of buicks. I can only conclude that your Referee was an idiot if all you got was a "70s...in...spaaaaaace!" vibe from the game.
Quote from: Dimitrios;676193The games I've played in were all about jumped up M-16s and computers the size of Buicks.:D
Fair enough, from a players perspective. If you check out even the old stuff aka LBBs, TL-15 is quite advanced as the baseline of the Third Imperium.
Internet, in general, is a huge game changer when it comes to Call of Cthulhu, as the whole idee fixe revolves around lack of knowledge at the beginning, and hardships of gaining it. However, it is a subject I actually devoted some thoughts to, and I feel I am ready to tackle and discuss it, proving it can enrich the gaming rather than be an obstacle.
So in general CoC could use some modern modern setting, rather than pre - Internet 90s. So I second that Delta Green has not aged that well. Loss of X - Files and move towards Supernatural/Dresden Files stylistics also don't help.
Cyberpunk of any kind for me is both dated as hell as topical as fuck. It's not what happens, but how, that's different.
We don't have a Global Japanese Economic and Cultural invasion and everything doesn't look like Blade Runner.
We do however, have an ever-increasing Corporate control of government, which is resulting in everyone becoming a Sarariman consumer.
Really all Cyberpunk has done is changed from an alt-future to an alt-history. The themes and tropes though are as valid now as they ever were, it's the trappings that have gone out of style.
We're about halfway through the "How it Came to Pass" in Shadowrun. We've had Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission but we haven't yet had our version of the Shiawase Decision.
Quote from: Rincewind1;676218Internet, in general, is a huge game changer when it comes to Call of Cthulhu, as the whole idee fixe revolves around lack of knowledge at the beginning, and hardships of gaining it. However, it is a subject I actually devoted some thoughts to, and I feel I am ready to tackle and discuss it, proving it can enrich the gaming rather than be an obstacle.
So in general CoC could use some modern modern setting, rather than pre - Internet 90s. So I second that Delta Green has not aged that well. Loss of X - Files and move towards Supernatural/Dresden Files stylistics also don't help.
Would the Internet even be useful in CoC? I mean sure, you can have a whole host of great scenarios like when McDonalds comes up with a new Logo and ad campaign "Have you seen the Yellow Arch?", but trying to research Mythos stuff on the internet? Sweet christ, what a load of bullshit you would have to wade through. I'd rather go the CoC route of trying to gain access to the Vatican catacombs. :D
The internet would be a magnificent vector for "Mythos Invasion" and practically useless as a scientific or academic research tool, kinda like real life. ;)
It's dirt easy to incorporate internet & modern smart phones if you take into account the intelligence of the antagonists. In Nomine SJG back in the day already suggested angels & demons of the internet, and unknown future tech already known but currently waiting to introduce to humanity when "the time is right." Assume cults and mythos servitor races are as smart as modern humanity, plus mythos tech on the side, and that just makes them more dangerous -- not more exposed.
A smart villain loves a useful idiot, the more powerful the better.
Remember, there's more than one way to hide things: hide it, deny it, lie about it, gossip it, reveal it, etc. Humans are very competent in their capacity to fool themselves. The incredulous are as useful as the credulous in the right hands (though I recommend structuring your NPCs with pre-written personalities, goals, and routines). If antagonists have more resources, let alone more smarts or access to 'magic', there'll be a vast supply of humanity's foibles to firewall PC efforts.
Quote from: CRKrueger;676221Cyberpunk of any kind for me is both dated as hell as topical as fuck. It's not what happens, but how, that's different.
We don't have a Global Japanese Economic and Cultural invasion and everything doesn't look like Blade Runner.
We do however, have an ever-increasing Corporate control of government, which is resulting in everyone becoming a Sarariman consumer.
Really all Cyberpunk has done is changed from an alt-future to an alt-history. The themes and tropes though are as valid now as they ever were, it's the trappings that have gone out of style.
We're about halfway through the "How it Came to Pass" in Shadowrun. We've had Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission but we haven't yet had our version of the Shiawase Decision.
How is that any different than Pinkertons enforcing mine "law", company stores in mining towns, US Steel practically controlling the US Gov't, "Range Detectives" who basically murdered-for-hire for corporate beef ranchers, "What's good for General Motors is good for America and vice-versa." - most or all of this at the turn of the 20th century, if not earlier?
And that's just in the US - the British East India company was a private corporation given control of a whole
country, and the ability to call in the Army to do its bidding.
QuoteReally all Cyberpunk has done is changed from an alt-future to an alt-history. The themes and tropes though are as valid now as they ever were, it's the trappings that have gone out of style.
It is for this reason that I actually went explicitly alt-history for Hackerscape, but I wound up overestimating my own art abilities and so it's been cancelled for now.
Quote from: James Gillen;676103The 80's: When every man had sunglasses, every woman had a perm, and EVERYBODY wore spandex.
JG
That's not right. I didn't wear spandex. I wore nylon, specifically parachute pants, and had all kinds of t-shirts with mystic Chinese or Japanese slogans inscripted with splashy kanji or logograms. Also from time-to-time headbands or bandanas as well, to keep all that long heavy metal hair well disciplined, and let's not forget all the silver jewelry.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;676233How is that any different than Pinkertons enforcing mine "law", company stores in mining towns, US Steel practically controlling the US Gov't, "Range Detectives" who basically murdered-for-hire for corporate beef ranchers, "What's good for General Motors is good for America and vice-versa." - most or all of this at the turn of the 20th century, if not earlier?
And that's just in the US - the British East India company was a private corporation given control of a whole country, and the ability to call in the Army to do its bidding.
It's not. It represents a
return to rampant predatory capitalism, rather than an emergence.
Quote from: TristramEvans;676082WEG's Star Wars. No midichlorians, no Boba Fett clones, no JarJar Binks, there aren't even any rules for Trade Embargos! Doesn't even feel like Star Wars.
You say that like its a bad thing...
Quote from: Lynn;676089But does that make them less enjoyable to play? To me, that's part of the charm, like playing a spy game like Top Secret, or even an Old West game.
Same here. I love "X-files" styles games. Classic Cyberpunk too. I mean if you play a Flash Gordon "Retro Future" what's wrong with a little dated?
Oh and to contribute: Pretty much every sci fi game about 5-10 yrs after its released.
Computer rules have typically aged badly (Traveller, I am looking at you).
Conspiracy games (the truth is out there) need to be rethought in the world of cell phone cameras. It can still be done with clever tricks, but the whole men in black shtick is harder.
top secret and top secret s/i. both fun games, but very rooted in spy movies of the late 70s and early 80s.
Quote from: TristramEvans;676082WEG's Star Wars. No midichlorians, no Boba Fett clones, no JarJar Binks, there aren't even any rules for Trade Embargos! Doesn't even feel like Star Wars.
See, to me, that's a selling point... ;) :D
Quote from: Dimitrios;676155On topic, I'm not a real Mage afficiando, but my impression is that M:tA really went in for 90s style postmodernism in way that might make it feel dated now.
....ya think?
jg
Quote from: CRKrueger;676221Cyberpunk of any kind for me is both dated as hell as topical as fuck. It's not what happens, but how, that's different.
We don't have a Global Japanese Economic and Cultural invasion and everything doesn't look like Blade Runner.
We do however, have an ever-increasing Corporate control of government, which is resulting in everyone becoming a Sarariman consumer.
Really all Cyberpunk has done is changed from an alt-future to an alt-history. The themes and tropes though are as valid now as they ever were, it's the trappings that have gone out of style.
We're about halfway through the "How it Came to Pass" in Shadowrun. We've had Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission but we haven't yet had our version of the Shiawase Decision.
I just wanna throw Fireball and Turn to Goo spells, okay?
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;676335I just wanna throw Fireball and Turn to Goo spells, okay?
This. We're getting the shit bits, and not the cool bits.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;676086Oh oh oh, every fucking word of Cyberpunk:2020. And Shadowrun.
I hate to agree, because I loved CP, but both Cyberpunk and Cyberpink are... not so fresh anymore. Even if we
do live in a world of corporate rule, omnipresent mass communication, runaway consumerism, fucked up subcultures, metropolitanism and social devastation. The basic message is more urgent than in the 80s, but the wrappings around it are sillier than Metropolis.
But there is more. The "language" of cyberpunk gaming is rooted in a lower technology level; basically, Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall with cyberarms and sunglasses. But that's also not how the world works anymore, because information and communication are everywhere, as is surveillance. That massive, massive information flow is described in cyberpunk writing but never really thought through. I don't know how I could run a plausible action adventure for a group of people outfitted with modern, everyday consumer-level (!) communication technology, let alone the things corporations and the military/private security have access to. Anything I can come up with would be completely ungameable or completely unrealistic.
I don't remember if I liked any RPG that had characters in the book drawn with mullets? I know now I won't even touch such a book.
I think I agree with many posters as to the "near future" settings tend to be dated as heck just with all the changes. Some people like the "retro-future" theme as part of their games, and that's okay, but when stuff like Cyberpunk settings originally came out there were meant to be cutting edge.
The nature of the changing world. Monte Cook's new game takes place Millennia from now, so it's likely to be safe, but how much you wanna bet 20 years from now we'll be looking at GURPS Transhuman Space and Eclipse Phase in the same way as we're looking at some of these games from the 90s.
Quote from: TristramEvans;676082WEG's Star Wars. No midichlorians, no Boba Fett clones, no JarJar Binks, there aren't even any rules for Trade Embargos!
Quote from: Nexus;676288You say that like its a bad thing...
+1000
Quote from: TristramEvans;676082WEG's Star Wars... Does feel like Star Wars.
Fixed your typo.
Quote from: RPGPundit;676074What games were in some sense or another a product of their time, and something about their setting or their style (this isn't a discussion about mechanics) make them seem amusingly or ridiculously dated these days?
RPGPundit
Late '80s/Early-'90s Cyberpunk stuff seems painfully naive to me now; 'Home of the Brave' is an excellent example. The sociopolitics is like a ten year old wrote it. I hear Shadowrun is similar.
Quote from: Settembrini;676178Mt, TN:E, T4 (Milieu 0), T20 (M: 1000); 4th imperium
nuff said and to the ignorelist with you!
NO - The Assassination and Rebellion /NEW Era stuff was all CRAP!!!
Thank Goodness
GURPS: Traveller put things back to the way they mostly should be.
- Ed C.
Quote from: CRKrueger;676224Would the Internet even be useful in CoC? I mean sure, you can have a whole host of great scenarios like when McDonalds comes up with a new Logo and ad campaign "Have you seen the Yellow Arch?", but trying to research Mythos stuff on the internet? Sweet christ, what a load of bullshit you would have to wade through. I'd rather go the CoC route of trying to gain access to the Vatican catacombs. :D
The internet would be a magnificent vector for "Mythos Invasion" and practically useless as a scientific or academic research tool, kinda like real life. ;)
Well, we like to jest that Internet is for Porn (TM), but while finding specialist stuff is sometimes hard indeed (and at times impossible - after all, professional books need to exist for a reason), it's often also possible. Not to mention my special pet peeve - Necronomicon scans on ThePirateBay. Of course I also admit that the thousands of conspiracy theory pages could provide Cthulhu Mythos knowledge...as well as meaningless lies. And of course there is the DeepWeb, where one may indeed find more than one bargains for, even now.
Myself though, I pondered upon some scenarios also where Internet is either a device of Mythos, or perhaps a Mythos creature itself. Remember Gibson's original predictions about cyberspace as "massive dream of computers"? What if it is nothing but a fragment of Yog Sothoth's eternal corpse? What if you could suddenly reach a web page that will be created 1000 years into the future, or a page that is a dream of Caligula? And of course, perhaps a computer virus that destroys everything in it's wake, but is actually a disease of Yog, trying to kill his bloated corpse, forcing heroes to save him in order to save something that has nowadays become one of foundations of our civilisation's ability to communicate.
Possibilities are endless, and I think we ought to dare to take Mythos beyond books and tentacles (which as we remember, Lovecraft loved to insert so much, because he had phobia against sea and it's creatures). For example - wouldn't it be a much more cost - efficient way to turn King in Yellow into a film?
Quote from: Melan;676369I don't know how I could run a plausible action adventure for a group of people outfitted with modern, everyday consumer-level (!) communication technology, let alone the things corporations and the military/private security have access to.
I've done it. It's essentially the same as these discussions about information on the internet: you actually have
too much information, the time taken to wade through it to find what you need may be crucial time. For example, terrorists are able to carry out their acts in London, perhaps the most surveilled city in the world - because by the time the security forces find the guys, they've already committed their act. On the flipside, the British police shot an innocent man they thought was a terrorist... essentially because of mistaken identity (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/aug/17/july7.menezes), the guy was in the same block of flats as some genuine suspects, and
A surveillance officer admitted in a witness statement that he was unable to positively identify Mr de Menezes as a suspect because the officer had been relieving himself when the Brazilian left the block of flats where he lived. [...]
One firearms officer is quoted as saying: "The current strategy around the address was as follows: no subject coming out of the address would be allowed to run and that an interception should take place as soon as possible away from the address trying not to compromise it."
But the report shows that there was a failure in the surveillance operation and officers wrongly believed Mr de Menezes could have been one of two suspects.
"Someone just left the building, was it the guy? We're too far, we can't see closely enough."
"I dunno, I was taking a piss."
There's still plenty of room for action-adventure scenarios in today's world, since though surveillance is ubiquitous, you still have to find the useful needle in the information haystack, which takes time - time in which the subjects can make and carry out their espionage, sabotage, assassination or terrorist plans. Whether the PCs are the officers or the subjects, that time gives you a lot of room for adventure.
Quote from: Claudius;676506Fixed your typo.
Missed my joke.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;676086Oh oh oh, every fucking word of Cyberpunk:2020. And Shadowrun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GPGQoR6f6w
especially Shadowrun.
And just so we've covered anything, any game that has characters ramming 3mm mini-DIN connectors into the sides of their heads to interface with computers ('cause yeah the human brain - so much faster than a sixteen-core cheap-enough-to-be-disposable hobby board with a touchscreen running Android...), and pits them against "neo Soviets" or "Japanese Megacorp private cops" or that constant chestnut of all Gibson's bastard children of the RPG hobby, the US broken up into tiny nation states that would make the most jaded randroid cackle with glee. I think that pretty much handles the "cyberpunk" game genre.
The truth, it
burns!
I still totally dig Cyberpunk 2020, though. I think I would have to do some major overhauls to the technology if I were to run a game again.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;676375I don't remember if I liked any RPG that had characters in the book drawn with mullets? I know now I won't even touch such a book.
Mullets & Montages: The 80's Role-Playing Game
Hey, I guess everyone knows the first CP game is set in 2013... anyway, CP rightly gets lampooned, but I would like to send some love out to Tears of Envy's Cyberpunk 1984 (http://tearsofenvysblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/cyberpunk-1984-is-go.html) project, which has some great images (https://gimmebar.com/collection/50f31eba29ca15f975000000/cyberpunk1984) up.
Also, cyberpunk juice (http://boingboing.net/2012/10/24/cyberpunk-juice-1984.html). I used to drink that stuff, god knows what was in it.
Quote from: smiorgan;676636Hey, I guess everyone knows the first CP game is set in 2013... anyway, CP rightly gets lampooned, but I would like to send some love out to Tears of Envy's Cyberpunk 1984 (http://tearsofenvysblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/cyberpunk-1984-is-go.html) project, which has some great images (https://gimmebar.com/collection/50f31eba29ca15f975000000/cyberpunk1984) up.
Also, cyberpunk juice (http://boingboing.net/2012/10/24/cyberpunk-juice-1984.html). I used to drink that stuff, god knows what was in it.
CP/M isn't making a comeback, is it? Oh I hope not.
Quote from: Koltar;676548NO - The Assassination and Rebellion /NEW Era stuff was all CRAP!!!
Thank Goodness GURPS: Traveller put things back to the way they mostly should be.
- Ed C.
They may have been crap, but they were still a different setting time within that big old OTU.
re cyberpunk 1984:
I vividly remember the 80ies as if it was yesterday. Neon looked tacky even back then. Never understood the whole androgynous-look thing. If anybody can explain, I greatly appreciate.
Also never udnerstood why it is night all the time, either.
Somebody upthread remarked how the future of Dark Conspiracy is more scary than CP, and I agree. The whole "combat zone" never made any sense at all. The genre in gaming imploded under the weight of its contradictions is my guess.
Ultimately, there were other 80ies elements in style that have aged much, much better, namely starship models for movies. CGI is not there yet, not by a stretch.
Torg. Make no mistake, it's a big pile of awesome, and it anticipated the pulp renaissance by a decade. But...
Nippon Tech doesn't work anymore. The technological advancement is woefully slow, the stark Japanese slant feels very dated, and ninjas are now cliched rather than serving as automatic injection of cool.
The timeline is all messed up... in Torg, the Possibility Wars were the impetus for a re-united Germany, the EU does not exist, Africa looks, well, different. In short, Torg veers sharply into alt-history territory. And it doesn't quite work as a a straight alt history, because the setting is already an alt-history setting. So it becomes a period piece, which is a strange thing for such a mashup.
Aysle is a straight up pastiche of 90s style epic high fantasy. It couldn't be any more dated if it were called World of Elriclance.
Space Gods is 90s style space opera, done lazily.
Tharkold reads like a Clive Barker/Aliens/Terminator love letter.
Ororsh fares better, as it does action-horror pretty well, plus the mix of period horror with modern splatter-cthulhu stuff. The Cyberpapacy... that will never stop being cool.
In short, Torg is still awesome, but it could never be revised, it needs to be redone.
It's already been said several times, but I read this and immediately thought of Cyberpunk. Mobile phones kill that game for me. Modern information technology is just so far beyond anything the game envisages, or more importantly anything its fundamental plot structures can cope with.
The '90s conspiracy games too, even though of course the conspiracies are in a sense as credible now as they ever were, they feel '90s. Well, semi-as credible. Ubiquitous mobile phones do for those a bit too.
Covering up anything after every bystander has filmed it on their phone and half of them have uploaded it would not be easy.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;676565I've done it. It's essentially the same as these discussions about information on the internet: you actually have too much information, the time taken to wade through it to find what you need may be crucial time. For example, terrorists are able to carry out their acts in London, perhaps the most surveilled city in the world - because by the time the security forces find the guys, they've already committed their act. On the flipside, the British police shot an innocent man they thought was a terrorist... essentially because of mistaken identity (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/aug/17/july7.menezes), the guy was in the same block of flats as some genuine suspects, and
A surveillance officer admitted in a witness statement that he was unable to positively identify Mr de Menezes as a suspect because the officer had been relieving himself when the Brazilian left the block of flats where he lived. [...]
One firearms officer is quoted as saying: "The current strategy around the address was as follows: no subject coming out of the address would be allowed to run and that an interception should take place as soon as possible away from the address trying not to compromise it."
But the report shows that there was a failure in the surveillance operation and officers wrongly believed Mr de Menezes could have been one of two suspects.
"Someone just left the building, was it the guy? We're too far, we can't see closely enough."
"I dunno, I was taking a piss."
There's still plenty of room for action-adventure scenarios in today's world, since though surveillance is ubiquitous, you still have to find the useful needle in the information haystack, which takes time - time in which the subjects can make and carry out their espionage, sabotage, assassination or terrorist plans. Whether the PCs are the officers or the subjects, that time gives you a lot of room for adventure.
I've done it myself, but it can be a lot more work.
That said, with respect to the Cyberpunk rpg (moving on from your point, and returning to mine of my last post) I never thought that credible or true to the fiction anyway. Even when it was current it felt like fantasy to me, nothing like anything by Gibson or Sterling (arguably a bit like Williams' Hardwired, which of course was later a supplement but is in some senses a part-post apocalypse setting).
Vampire the Masquerade for me. Looking back when I played it was certainly a very teenager angst game and I could not imagine playing it now.
I have no idea how the game or system evolved but it always seemed to me with the entire WoD that there was too much supernatural going on for any of it to be secret...
By the way, there is new Cyberpunk video RPG game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P99qJGrPNLs) coming out with new paper system too I believe.
"Dragonlance" seems so dated to me. Fantasy dates as quickly as any other genre. The whole thing just screams "80s schlock fantasy". Goldmoon is like a Darryl Hannah pixie dream girl character, Riverwind is a Noble 80s Indian Savage a la Dances With Wolves, it's just all so cliched.
Quote from: elfandghost;676681Vampire the Masquerade for me. Looking back when I played it was certainly a very teenager angst game and I could not imagine playing it now.
I have no idea how the game or system evolved but it always seemed to me with the entire WoD that there was too much supernatural going on for any of it to be secret...
By the way, there is new Cyberpunk video RPG game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P99qJGrPNLs) coming out with new paper system too I believe.
I always thought with WoD that each game worked well on its own (save maybe Werewolf, I could never buy them not being obvious), but terribly when you combined it all into one overstuffed world
Quote from: D-503;676690I always thought with WoD that each game worked well on its own (save maybe Werewolf, I could never buy them not being obvious), but terribly when you combined it all into one overstuffed world
As I understand and I could be dead wrong: Vampire and the other games weren't originally intended to be one big world. They were separate continuities set in the same "Gothpunk" genre but no more connected than say, any random two westerns. The leeches in Werewolf weren't the "Cainites" from Vampire, etc. Perhaps similar but more simplified (and usually built using that core monster's powers just reskinned so they were more mechanically balanced over all).
But combining the games became a popular fan thing. Some of the writers did mention that it wasn't a good idea since the "splats" weren't balanced against each other (and WWGS general lack of mechanical soundness made that aspect worse) but the idea of combined world of darkness was too persistent and become, more or less, official in later edition including published cross over modules.
Hell, the whole multiple creature (splat) per shared world thing has become a White Wolfism trade mark. It seems to be a successful model for selling books even though its cumbersome at times. For instance, I think Exalted works much better as separate game lines per Exalted group, sharing the same general backdrop adjusted for each one. I don't see that happening though. Their fanbase is really in love with splat structure.
I dunno, I have mixed feeling about this topic probably because so much of what I like is considered retro or dated. The whole thing is really a matter of taste and fashion. Entertainment is entertainment and what you like don't like isn't or doesn't have to be based on what's current or even plausible. One persons classic is another person's tired cliche. And if there's still people into Star Trek and Dungeon crawls then there's going to be people into cyberpunk, literary or rpg, well after 2020. And trends come and go. A few years, bionics and chrome or conspiracies might be popular again (maybe in a slightly altered format). All it takes is for some one to do something provocative or "awesome" with it, that catches allot of geek attention.
Seems almost mean spirited to mock sci fi game writers, for instance, for not being psychics and accurately predicting the future. And its not like in 10 or 20 years, someone will be talking about what popular now and rolling their eyes over it, wondering how anyone ever got into that cheesy old fashioned crap :-D
Quote from: Nexus;676704Seems almost mean spirited to mock sci fi game writers, for instance, for not being psychics and accurately predicting the future.
On a more general tangent.
It's always amusing examining the predictions made by sci-fi writers, prognosticators/futurists, "prophets", stock market analysts, economic pundits, etc ..., and seeing how much they get it right or wrong.
It's even more amusing seeing whether their track record at getting things right, is no better than flipping a coin (or worse).
Quote from: elfandghost;676681Vampire the Masquerade for me. Looking back when I played it was certainly a very teenager angst game and I could not imagine playing it now.
I have no idea how the game or system evolved but it always seemed to me with the entire WoD that there was too much supernatural going on for any of it to be secret...
The issue was the number of vampires. Could a few hundred active vampires exist without being noticed? Across the whole of the west, of course they could. But for them to be able to hide (and ditto with werewolves and any mages on the earthly plane) there have to be few enough of them that you mostly get things like unsolved murders and such.
Urban fantasy was like that a lot. A few sparks of magic could be missed in, for example, new York city. Especially when cell phone cameras were not even thought of -- that drunk businessman really was having a bad night, not that there was a blood sucking monster.
Where it could hard was with the player characters actually not being the backbone of the local vampire structure. That required many more vampires (and powerful vampires) as foils than even a large city was likely to conceal.
It is only a problem if you assume a social efficiency and a popular critical thinking that I have yet to experience in all my travels around the world. The world functions quite handily with dysfunction; the people cope daily without deep thinking. After the joys of various international bureaucracies, nothing seemingly insane and improbable surprises me.
Allen Steele once wrote that the chances of a science fiction writer accurately predicting the future were the same as those of a blindfolded man spun around randomly in a room with a target on one surface hitting it with that spray of shotgun pellets.
Quote from: jeff37923;676838Allen Steele once wrote that the chances of a science fiction writer accurately predicting the future were the same as those of a blindfolded man spun around randomly in a room with a target on one surface hitting it with that spray of shotgun pellets.
So, pretty high?
Quote from: jeff37923;676838Allen Steele once wrote that the chances of a science fiction writer accurately predicting the future were the same as those of a blindfolded man spun around randomly in a room with a target on one surface hitting it with that spray of shotgun pellets.
Even more amusing is if the scattershot predictions end up becoming declared "right", in a "texas sharpshooter fallacy" manner. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy
Quote from: jeff37923;676838Allen Steele once wrote that the chances of a science fiction writer accurately predicting the future were the same as those of a blindfolded man spun around randomly in a room with a target on one surface hitting it with that spray of shotgun pellets.
Was Allen Steele born before or after HG Wells?
To be fair, Elmore's Dragon Lance art with its perfectly permed eighties hair really nails the books into that time frame. It's a grim world of golden sunlight and supermodels posing in renfaire garb.
Quote from: ggroy;676899http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy
I didn't know that one. This is SUPER common.
Quote from: CRKrueger;676224Would the Internet even be useful in CoC? I mean sure, you can have a whole host of great scenarios like when McDonalds comes up with a new Logo and ad campaign "Have you seen the Yellow Arch?", but trying to research Mythos stuff on the internet? Sweet christ, what a load of bullshit you would have to wade through. I'd rather go the CoC route of trying to gain access to the Vatican catacombs. :D
The internet would be a magnificent vector for "Mythos Invasion" and practically useless as a scientific or academic research tool, kinda like real life. ;)
After I ran a few games where the pcs slowly began to understand that a lot of modern tech was developed from reverse engineering mi-go technology, they slowly stopped using cell phones, web devices etc as much as they had previously.
Quote from: Nexus;676704I dunno, I have mixed feeling about this topic probably because so much of what I like is considered retro or dated. The whole thing is really a matter of taste and fashion. Seems almost mean spirited to mock sci fi game writers
I don't think people are mocking the writers, so much as just stating that something that might have seen innovative and cutting-edge has fast become dated. It's not so much a condemnation of the material but just an observation that it can get to a point where it interferes with "suspension of disbelief".
Fads too have a way of dating things--writing and culture has fads that come and go. This is a lesser problem because, like you said, fads can come back--disco was a perfect example--it went from being cool R&B music to over-exposed to hated and mocked to becoming cool again or at least respected as its own genre. Trends in RPGs will come and go the same way.
But there's a difference when it comes to specific genres such as near future science fiction and stuff like espionage or near-post apocalyptic stuff. Part of the appeal of those genres is that you believe this is the near future, so when technology and social changes go off the rails of the predictions, suddenly it can get in the way of the enjoyment. That doesn't mean you can't still enjoy them, but usually it becomes something different--an alternate reality or touching upon theoretical physics. You can enjoy a Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon era SF campaign, but you know it's not the reality, so it's not going to have the exact same appeal--you either look at it ironically or you think of it as an alternate time.
Quote from: Nexus;676695As I understand and I could be dead wrong: Vampire and the other games weren't originally intended to be one big world. They were separate continuities set in the same "Gothpunk" genre but no more connected than say, any random two westerns. The leeches in Werewolf weren't the "Cainites" from Vampire, etc.
There's some room for argument here, but the rulebooks (starting with
Werewolf: The Apocalypse) were always fairly explicit that they were separate games that were meant to be played separately, but they were all set in the same game world.
Quote from: David Johansen;676903It's a grim world of golden sunlight and supermodels posing in renfaire garb.
:rotfl:
A great description, DJ.
Quote from: David Johansen;676903To be fair, Elmore's Dragon Lance art with its perfectly permed eighties hair really nails the books into that time frame. It's a grim world of golden sunlight and supermodels posing in renfaire garb.
All D&D adventures should be populated with 80s porn stars. This way lies awesome.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;676954There's some room for argument here, but the rulebooks (starting with Werewolf: The Apocalypse) were always fairly explicit that they were separate games that were meant to be played separately, but they were all set in the same game world.
I was never sure how serious they were about that. They changed rules in Mage to make it work better with Vampire (making it easier for vampires to resist spells -- the famous "vampire to lawnchair example). And they did a lot of crossover stuff (like the week of Nightmares or a module with both Vampire and Werewolf tracks).
So it would be easy to get confused about this point.
Quote from: Votan;677069I was never sure how serious they were about that. They changed rules in Mage to make it work better with Vampire (making it easier for vampires to resist spells -- the famous "vampire to lawnchair example). And they did a lot of crossover stuff (like the week of Nightmares or a module with both Vampire and Werewolf tracks).
So it would be easy to get confused about this point.
It is. It changed between various editions too.
Quote from: ggroy;676899Even more amusing is if the scattershot predictions end up becoming declared "right", in a "texas sharpshooter fallacy" manner. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy
QuoteThe name comes from a joke about a Texan who fires some shots at the side of a barn, then paints a target centered on the biggest cluster of hits and claims to be a sharpshooter.
I thought the phrase came from how Lee Harvey Oswald could shoot two guys with one bullet. :D
JG
Quote from: Grey Wanderer;676944After I ran a few games where the pcs slowly began to understand that a lot of modern tech was developed from reverse engineering mi-go technology, they slowly stopped using cell phones, web devices etc as much as they had previously.
I should start spreading that meme in real life.
JG
Quote from: Grey Wanderer;677068All D&D adventures should be populated with 80s porn stars. This way lies awesome.
Ron Jeremy
IS
Mordenkainen the Archmage
Quote from: James Gillen;677086I should start spreading that meme in real life.
JG
It only works if people actually believe in Mi-Go running around the Real World.
Quote from: jeff37923;677090It only works if people actually believe in Mi-Go running around the Real World.
Not too far a cry from Illuminati serpentmen.
Quote from: James Gillen;677088Ron Jeremy
IS
Mordenkainen the Archmage
Mordenkainen casts "Enlarge!"
Quote from: TristramEvans;677093Not too far a cry from Illuminati serpentmen.
Yeah, you got a point there. It would not be hard to shoehorn this in to one of the more crackpot conspiracy theories that demand that all of our recent technological advances come from the crashed saucer at Area 51.
Talk about D&D With Pornstars :D.
Funnily enough, the biggest LARP in Poland (well, second - biggest) has one of it's chief bad guys, the greatest necromancer of the setting, named after Czech Pornstar, because when they were making the setting, one of the guy sneaked that name in.
Quote from: pawsplay;676650In short, Torg is still awesome, but it could never be revised, it needs to be redone.
I always hoped someone would do this and, you know, save me the trouble.
:)
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;677098I always hoped someone would do this and, you know, save me the trouble.
:)
Yours sounds interesting enough that I wouldn't want someone else doing it.
Quote from: jeff37923;677101Yours sounds interesting enough that I wouldn't want someone else doing it.
Thank you, very much.
Quote from: James Gillen;676103The 80's: When every man had sunglasses, every woman had a perm, and EVERYBODY wore spandex.
Yeah, a lot of illustrations from that time are even more jarring than they were back in the day.
Quote from: J Arcane;676153Most of the classic cyberpunk games just suffer from some dated style and pop culture elements, as well of course as the dated computer tech...
GDW's
Dark Conspiracy at least had a rationale for its "retro future."
Quote from: Phillip;677212Yeah, a lot of illustrations from that time are even more jarring than they were back in the day.
I seem to recall that CYBORG COMMANDO had shades.
JG
Ninjas and Superspies. Everything about it is dated. The artwork, the language used, the skills, the equipment... everything. Last time we played N&SS the GM got an earful because we players were told, "It's modern day," and he did absolutely nothing to change it to make it modern. So while one character had a laptop, a satellite card for it consisted of a giant dish, and 50 pounds of other equipment, instead of the 1 ounce piece of plastic and silicon sticking out of the guy's laptop in real life, as we were playing.
"Stereo System: Picks up AM/FM/Shortwave signals and delivers the signal in stereo. Also plays tape cassettes."
Quote from: everloss;677367Ninjas and Superspies. Everything about it is dated. The artwork, the language used, the skills, the equipment... everything. Last time we played N&SS the GM got an earful because we players were told, "It's modern day," and he did absolutely nothing to change it to make it modern. So while one character had a laptop, a satellite card for it consisted of a giant dish, and 50 pounds of other equipment, instead of the 1 ounce piece of plastic and silicon sticking out of the guy's laptop in real life, as we were playing.
"Stereo System: Picks up AM/FM/Shortwave signals and delivers the signal in stereo. Also plays tape cassettes."
Well, that's on par with the rest of the Palladium system, then.
jg
Quote from: Novastar;676305See, to me, that's a selling point... ;) :D
Oh bite my ass!
WEG is responsible for more EU stupidity than anyone else, with the possible exception of Karen Traviss.
Quote from: valency;676686"Dragonlance" seems so dated to me. Fantasy dates as quickly as any other genre. The whole thing just screams "80s schlock fantasy". Goldmoon is like a Darryl Hannah pixie dream girl character, Riverwind is a Noble 80s Indian Savage a la Dances With Wolves, it's just all so cliched.
It's like the cover to a dime romance novel. :rotfl:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KdMdFBla5JQ/UBRvqNvrz8I/AAAAAAAAARM/ArXj5g2QcSE/s320/Savage+Vision.jpeg)(http://redpenofdoomdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/mcmullet.jpg?w=187&h=300)
Back when the modules first came out a friend of mine bought them and asked me to play the song printed in one of them. That's right kids: SHEET MUSIC IN A D&D MODULE! I tried to play it on the piano just as my girlfriend at the time walked in. It was hard enough before to convince her that not all gamers are weirdos, but she saw me with Dragonlance on the piano, turned on her heel and ran home -not returning my phone calls until the next day.
So the whole teen angst thing with sobbing/brooding vampires was passe had no appeal for me at all. Thanks to Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman and their shitty modules, I experienced
real teen agony in the form of cringe-worthy embarrassment and a helping of blue balls to go with it. How could White Wolf ever top that?
It would have been less humiliating if she had walked in while I was jerking off. At least that kind of wank ends with a happy ending, and I could explain why I did it!
Quote from: ggroy;676708On a more general tangent.
It's always amusing examining the predictions made by sci-fi writers, prognosticators/futurists, "prophets", stock market analysts, economic pundits, etc ..., and seeing how much they get it right or wrong.
It's even more amusing seeing whether their track record at getting things right, is no better than flipping a coin (or worse).
Check out Victor Navasky's The Experts Speak (http://www.experts-speak.com/).
Quote from: Elfdart;678181Oh bite my ass!
Tease!
QuoteWEG is responsible for more EU stupidity than anyone else, with the possible exception of Karen Traviss.
1) I actually rather like Traviss' work; it's certainly better than what they did with Mandalorians in the "higher" canon
Clone Wars.
2) Considering that the success of the RPG is one of the main reasons a book publisher took a risk on giving Tim Zahn a chance to write new Star Wars books, which led to a Star Wars revival...
More importantly, d6 Star Wars was the entry point for A LOT of second generation gamers, such as myself.
Quote from: everloss;677367Ninjas and Superspies. Everything about it is dated. The artwork, the language used, the skills, the equipment... everything. Last time we played N&SS the GM got an earful because we players were told, "It's modern day," and he did absolutely nothing to change it to make it modern. So while one character had a laptop, a satellite card for it consisted of a giant dish, and 50 pounds of other equipment, instead of the 1 ounce piece of plastic and silicon sticking out of the guy's laptop in real life, as we were playing.
"Stereo System: Picks up AM/FM/Shortwave signals and delivers the signal in stereo. Also plays tape cassettes."
Well, if we go there, then we should count Palladium's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (although the revival makes it somewhat relevant again), plus the whole staple of licensed early nineties properties including the World Wrestling Federation (back when it was WWF, bitches!) Basic Roleplaying Game and the Street Fighter RPG. And "Dallas", the RPG.
Rifts had some comically dated equipment, including the "holographic" PC with the inconceivable 64 MB (or was it KB) of ram.
Quote from: David Johansen;676158Dark Conspiracy, as it turns out the greys and the tentacled aliens and the demons were all co-opted by Monsanto and the IMF and have been reduced to spraying chemi-trails and producing fake birth certificates for American presidents. Sigh...conspiracies ain't what they used to be no more.
On the other hand, its bleak future of ecological collapse and corporate democracy where welfare is run by corporations in exchange for votes, is still the scariest part of the game. Cyberpunk's all chrome and style. Dark Conspiracy's ragged paper coveralls and no running water.
I think Dark Conspiracy still stand up fine as a piece of uber Lovecraft horror meets dystopia. It could still work fine.
Quote from: valency;678258Well, if we go there, then we should count Palladium's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (although the revival makes it somewhat relevant again), plus the whole staple of licensed early nineties properties including the World Wrestling Federation (back when it was WWF, bitches!) Basic Roleplaying Game and the Street Fighter RPG. And "Dallas", the RPG.
Rifts had some comically dated equipment, including the "holographic" PC with the inconceivable 64 MB (or was it KB) of ram.
Rifts has been updated and Palladium no longer attempts to guess at things like computer hardware. They now simply say generalities like, "top of the line" or "average processor speed." Same with After the Bomb, Heroes Unlimited, etc. Besides, it's an alternate universe with butter trolls and floopers. I can suspend my disbelief somewhat.
Ninja's and Superspies is WAY different than other Palladium games in that to use the "good" equipment, you basically have to build it yourself like old Heathkit stereos and TVs. It's an 80s game about 60s and 70s technology. Now, if you play it as a period game, ala 1960s spy-thriller, it's not bad at all. Keep in mind, I'm just talking about the setting and equipment as written. It can be easily adapted to a modern setting.
But really, any futuristic sci-fi game setting (and whatever other non-system parts) is going to seem dated and ridiculous the further we go from the date of its publication.
I didn't have much interest in Twilight 2000 back in the day but these days I'd stoked to play in that setting. Same with some cyberpunk version of Max Headroom... blanks and organleggers and blipverts, oh my! Maybe some street level version of Judge Dredd would suffice.
The element I really think of as an embarrassing bit of Wayback are settings that featured detailed layout of dance clubs... there seemed to be lots in the cyberpunk and vampire games.
Do games still toss in multi-page floorplans for discotheques?
Quote from: Simlasa;678582I didn't have much interest in Twilight 2000 back in the day but these days I'd stoked to play in that setting. Same with some cyberpunk version of Max Headroom... blanks and organleggers and blipverts, oh my! Maybe some street level version of Judge Dredd would suffice.
The element I really think of as an embarrassing bit of Wayback are settings that featured detailed layout of dance clubs... there seemed to be lots in the cyberpunk and vampire games.
Do games still toss in multi-page floorplans for discotheques?
Ha! Good one. :)
I am of two minds, though. On the one hand, you have your map of the Electric Frog all laid out to the centimetre, and the players walk in, make contact, and head out for the assignment. Of course, if you just have a general idea of the layout in your head, the players will initiate an intricate firefight involving man-portable tac-nukes. :)
Twilight:2000 Hasn't aged well and it's not because the whole "The Russians Are Coming!" theme became implausible in 1989. The idea that the Red Army was ever going to invade Western Europe was always a joke. What made the game age badly was some of the dumber rules.
For example, officers were almost always short -5'6" or under thanks to the poorly designed height/weight tables (Stature?). It became a running gag to shoot the smallest enemy soldiers because they were almost always of higher rank. Here's another: Nato 7.62 battle/assault rifles couldn't fire full auto.
The revamped version from 1990 was a big improvement (dumping d% for d20), though it still required a WW3 scenario when what most people wanted was bang-bang shoot-'em-up action and maybe a re-enactment of action movies like The Wild Geese. Merc:2000 was just GDW's attempt to formalize what Twilight:2000 players (and Phoenix Command) were already doing: dispensing with the Third World War crap and instead having action take place in wars in the Third World.
Quote from: Elfdart;678722For example, officers were almost always short -5'6" or under thanks to the poorly designed height/weight tables (Stature?). It became a running gag to shoot the smallest enemy soldiers because they were almost always of higher rank.
I thought that was because of the "If you can't do, teach" principle.
QuoteHere's another: Nato 7.62 battle/assault rifles couldn't fire full auto.
Gad, I'm happy I never played that.
JG
Quote from: Elfdart;678722. Here's another: Nato 7.62 battle/assault rifles couldn't fire full auto.
Actually, the majority of 7.62x52mm battle rifles lack a full auto setting. The British L1A1 SLR, for example, is semi-auto only. Full auto fire with 7.62 mm is of questionable utility, to say the least.
A lot of genre games haven't aged well just because in subtle little ways the genre as a whole (specific licenses aside) has changed from the time of writing the RPG.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Elfdart;678722Twilight:2000 Hasn't aged well and it's not because the whole "The Russians Are Coming!" theme became implausible in 1989. The idea that the Red Army was ever going to invade Western Europe was always a joke. What made the game age badly was some of the dumber rules.
That reminds me, the Price of Freedom's basically Red Dawn the RPG.
Interesting. Many of the games people mention are light sci-fi or 'modern' settings. How difficult would it be to impart the 'feel' of the 80s onto someone (younger) who is new to Cyberpunk 2020, Twilight:2000, or Top Secret? Maybe the problem isn't the setting itself, it's that no one wants to experience that setting anymore in the original context.
Maybe present the setting as a slice of history instead of trying to advance them to our current understanding.
Quote from: Nexus;676704Seems almost mean spirited to mock sci fi game writers, for instance, for not being psychics and accurately predicting the future. And its not like in 10 or 20 years, someone will be talking about what popular now and rolling their eyes over it, wondering how anyone ever got into that cheesy old fashioned crap
The Boston Museum of Science, in the late 80s, had a brilliant exhibit called "Yesterday's Tomorrows," which focused on what people in the 1950s predicted the contemporary world would look like. We were -- 25 years go, that is -- to have paper disposable clothes, to punch our eating choices into the FoodOTron, to commute to work in our personal helicopters, to converse with one another on our videophones.
Quote from: Ravenswing;681194The Boston Museum of Science, in the late 80s, had a brilliant exhibit called "Yesterday's Tomorrows," which focused on what people in the 1950s predicted the contemporary world would look like. We were -- 25 years go, that is -- to have paper disposable clothes, to punch our eating choices into the FoodOTron, to commute to work in our personal helicopters, to converse with one another on our videophones.
One out of four, not too bad, and fast food industry is pretty much a FoodOTron with people inside the machine, innit? ;)
While we give Cyberpunk a hard time, oddly enough, a lot of those predictions came about true actually. I mean, Google Glass is pretty much a more elegant head Jack - In port, and we're a few steps away from it, apparently.
There aren't quite as many neons and mud everywhere, but hey - give politicians those 8 years, eh?
Quote from: StormBringer;681161How difficult would it be to impart the 'feel' of the 80s onto someone (younger) who is new to Cyberpunk 2020, Twilight:2000, or Top Secret? Maybe the problem isn't the setting itself, it's that no one wants to experience that setting anymore in the original context.
But then, who wants to experience 70s sword & sorcery and other fantasy subgenres in their original context?
Today it seems there's always Drizzt, Assassins's Creed, Tidus, Locke Lamora, not Conan, Grey Mouser, Sparrowhawk/Ged, or Morgon of Hed.
Quote from: StormBringer;681161Interesting. Many of the games people mention are light sci-fi or 'modern' settings. How difficult would it be to impart the 'feel' of the 80s onto someone (younger) who is new to Cyberpunk 2020, Twilight:2000, or Top Secret? Maybe the problem isn't the setting itself, it's that no one wants to experience that setting anymore in the original context.
Maybe present the setting as a slice of history instead of trying to advance them to our current understanding.
T2k works for me (and I realize it doesn't for a lot of people, particularly those younger than me) because I have a connection to the Cold War in that I was a gamer when T2k was written and released. In 1985, even as a kid (and it was reinforced by adults), common wisdom of the man on the street was that the solution to the east/west issue was that there would be a nuclear war. It would "just happen someday". The question on many folks' mind wasn't "if" but "when" and "how" and T2k was written to address that (which it did, poorly) and how people would survive afterward (which it did admirably).
It's an alternate history game from a time in history where it seemed like a probable history game.
The screw up with T2k was, to me, later editions tried to retcon into later game fluff the insanely rapid change of global politics from rapprochement to thaw to end-of-cold-war that happened in a mere 3 years. I mean, you can make a case that the attempts by the Communists to seize power under Yeltsin might have put the "CCP" back in the CCP, but fact is even given that it isn't like the genie could be put back in the bottle. The USSR went out of business in 1989, period, and later T2k trying to say..."But then, the west heard a horrifying laugh behind them and they turned around, and the corpse of the USSR stood up and said 'Foolish mortals, jeans and walkmans can't kill me! Muah-ha-ha-ha!'- and the cold war started again!"...was just kind of dumb.
It didn't help that T2k as a game was on it's trembly, newborn game legs when the cold war
did end...the whole sense of panicked happiness and realization that we'd stood on the brink of nuclear annihilation for so many decades and that it was finally ending probably put even the most gung-ho gamers in no mood to jump back 3 years and play a game where the Bomb had been dropped.
Now, though, I view T2k - at least the timeline of v.1 - as being like playing one of those "Weird War 2" games, or a sort of steampunk WWI/LXG type thing.
Don't get me started on 2013 though (the background, I mean, not the mechanics). Ugh.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;681685T2k works for me (and I realize it doesn't for a lot of people, particularly those younger than me) because I have a connection to the Cold War in that I was around when T2k was written. In 1985, even as a kid (and it was reinforced by adults), common wisdom of the man on the street was that the solution to the east/west issue was that there would be a nuclear war. It would "just happen someday". The question on many folks' mind wasn't "if" but "when" and "how" and T2k was written to address that (which it did, poorly) and how people would survive afterward (which it did admirably).
It's an alternate history game from a time in history where it seemed like a probable history game.
The screw up with T2k was, to me, later editions tried to retcon into later game fluff the insanely rapid change of global politics from rapprochement to thaw to end-of-cold-war that happened in a mere 3 years. I mean, you can make a case that the attempts by the Communists to seize power under Yeltsin might have put the "CCP" back in the CCP, but fact is even given that it isn't like the genie could be put back in the bottle. The USSR went out of business in 1989, period, and later T2k trying to say..."But then, the west heard a horrifying laugh behind them and they turned around, and the corpse of the USSR stood up and said 'Foolish mortals, jeans and walkmans can't kill me! Muah-ha-ha-ha!'- and the cold war started again!"...was just kind of dumb.
It didn't help that T2k as a game was on it's trembly, newborn game legs when the cold war did end...the whole sense of panicked happiness and realization that we'd stood on the brink of nuclear annihilation for so many decades and that it was finally ending probably put even the most gung-ho gamers in no mood to jump back 3 years and play a game where the Bomb had been dropped.
Now, though, I view T2k - at least the timeline of v.1 - as being like playing one of those "Weird War 2" games, or a sort of steampunk WWI/LXG type thing.
Don't get me started on 2013 though (the background, I mean, not the mechanics). Ugh.
Well, to their defence, I don't think that many people expected the Rise of Putin to occur so fast :D.
(that does sound like a name for some modern espionage - politics - mercenaries campaign, doesn't it?)
Quote from: Elfdart;678722Here's another: Nato 7.62 battle/assault rifles couldn't fire full auto.
That was true IRL. The L1A1 (FN-FAL) 7.62mm as used in eg the 1982 Falklands War by the UK had a limiter that stopped it firing full auto, as it was regarded as uncontrollable.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;681685Don't get me started on 2013 though (the background, I mean, not the mechanics). Ugh.
The adventures of Yesterday's Tomorrow - TODAY!
I could go for a 90s nostalgia game about now. Something that involves trench coats & katanas, Gen X pseudo philosophizing and edgy people vs evil conspiracies.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;676109My favorite part of that is when they break into the TARDIS so that they can hack their way into the holodeck.
Just me or was that the Space Needle at about the 3:07 mark?
Awesome-
Firefly and Buffy seems more dated than T2k.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;676086Oh oh oh, every fucking word of Cyberpunk:2020. And Shadowrun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GPGQoR6f6w
especially Shadowrun.
.
What...what...what the hell is that? Why was it made? Its like vintage porn without the sex!
Quote from: Justin Alexander;676109My favorite part of that is when they break into the TARDIS so that they can hack their way into the holodeck.
And then briefly get pursued by one of the spheres from Phantasm.
That whole matrix sequence makes about as much sense as the 2ndedition rules did I guess...
Quote from: TristramEvans;681988And then briefly get pursued by one of the spheres from Phantasm.
That whole matrix sequence makes about as much sense as the 2ndedition rules did I guess...
I think they stole the music from
Overdrawn at the Memory Bank. And most of the film crew, it looks.
Quote from: TristramEvans;681987What...what...what the hell is that? Why was it made? Its like vintage porn without the sex!
It's like a hair metal video. Without the sex.
JG