Are there any RPGs that you truly disliked the first time you tried them, but that for some reason over time you came to like them?
And what changed? Was it external reasons (the group you were in, the GM or other players, etc)? Was it a growing appreciation of its qualities? Or was it changes you had as a gamer?
I bought the three core books for D&D 3.0 and read them, then sold them at a used book store because I thought it was overcomplicated for a game. I struggled with it while doing playtesting for d20 Traveller, and I was doing some solo gaming to test out the math on a rule and it just clicked. From there on it became more interesting and the gems that came out of the OGL were really innovative and it all just grew on me. There were still some craptastic parts, but it wasn't entirely the d20 system that made it craptastic.
TORG, when I first encountered it, I basically went 'what the fuck is this shit?'
A D20 die roll, which... you have to look up on a table, to derive the actual value? And it uses some funky log table for effect of values? Sometimes you reroll 10s, sometimes you reroll 10s and 20s, and reality storms, and...
I liked the setting, mostly, but 'in this cosm sailboats don't work. Except for some people.' Just real mental gymnastics.
I stuck with it because, well, the setting sounded gonzo fun, and my friends were playing it. We rolled up ... ourselves, literally sitting in the room we were sitting in, when the reality storm dropped on Pittsburgh.
And we ran around the guy's house, drawing water, turning things into weapons (I had a piece of bannister as a club for a long time), and then let's try to get over to Seth's house, because he has guns.
I couldn't figure out how to turn myself into an adventurer, so I decided... Faith! Now, at the time, I was drifting atheist-ward, but I had a pseudo semi-belief in the 'quiet God' who just sort of... did things behind the scenes. So I was a Paragon Faith believer in the unseen God.
(The quip was: There is no God, and Will is His prophet)
It was weirdly effective. Most of the group switched characters, this whole bit was a 'kicking the tires, get used to the game' phase, but a friend and I decided to keep playing adventure versions of ourselves.
(I still feel bad for the Muslim guy I tried to heal and inadvertently exploded, because the faith rules in Torg are wacky -- if you try to perform a miracle on someone of another faith, there is a backlash effect. And since I had lots of points in Faith and Focus and random NPC didn't... splort.)
ANYhoo... the fun of playing Adventure Will, the excitement of the other folks, and playing under a GM who REALLY knew the game, eventually allowed me to see some of the really REALLY clever design of Torg.
I still think Torg is one of the most singularly brilliantly designed games, ever, though I find the idea of running it very intimidating. ;)
Rolemaster was a drag in my experience except with one GM who kept the game flowing. Just how much he used the rulesbooks I don't know.
I'm delighted to read of that Torg experience, since my own - as GM - started very enthusiastic but quickly cooled. I might appreciate it better today.
Heroes Unlimited is one I only very recently came to like - not as much as other comicbook-hero games, but now I would at least be glad to play. Reading the handbook ultimately changed my view, and for years I kept getting turned off from that when I had barely begun. I was well used to Siembieda's disjointed style, but the HU book somehow was too much.
Well, the whole OSR thing got me to try D&D again, after years of vowing I'd never go near it. If it had stayed on the 3.5/4e path it was on and if there'd been no OSR embracing original D&D/Basic and doing new and strange things with it I'd still be against it... but it helped that somewhere along the way I calmed down a lot about the whole class/level thing and HP being... various things.
I'm definitely favoring the low-crunch end of the pool... LotFP and DCC are pretty simple but I'd never want to run Pathfinder.
Quote from: Phillip;803063I'm delighted to read of that Torg experience, since my own - as GM - started very enthusiastic but quickly cooled. I might appreciate it better today.
Maybe. There's a lot to manage, and the game certainly has its flaws.
But, man, the way cards work, the way 'social guys' actually have something to DO...
And that stupid log table actually lets you do funky things.
Yeah, I liked the logs, etc., in DC Heroes. The cards in Torg were one of the things I recall finding irksome.
BRP. At first CoC bored me, the system felt flat, and it generally didn't inspire me. But the Big Gold Book came out and I bought it, and was impressed by the various options. I think I enjoy the Legend/Runequest 6 distro the best, but the system is so easy to modify, quick, and new players just seem to "get it" fast. It also fades away in game play. Super easy to GM.
Runequest/BRP.
Mostly as I couldn't stand the person who liked it and played it.
However after a while, I looked past that and actually tried it myself and liked it.
I didn't invite him to play tho! ;)
So he was a jerk, but had good taste in RPGs.
Without actually trying them, I dismissed Star Frontiers and Buck Rogers XXVc. Years later, when I gave them a fair go, they turned out to be pretty nifty.
Quote from: Phillip;803058Rolemaster was a drag in my experience except with one GM who kept the game flowing. Just how much he used the rulesbooks I don't know.
When I first bought Rolemaster I couldn't stand it. There was so much and I came in with Rolemaster Standard System not first or second edition. It later became my favorite game. It accomplishes so much and makes so much out of what it does.
I went from a fan of small, light games to a fan of big complex ones because Rolemaster showed me how much all that detail can deliver.
TSR's Marvel Super Heroes. I first got it back when it was new. I was not impressed. I only gave it a chance a few years ago after reading so many glowing reviews on this and other forums and ended up running what is probably my most successful campaign of all time with it.
I got a lot keener on 4e D&D over time as I realised that it wasn't really a 'D&D' type game at all. Once I understood what it was good at I found it worked really well.
When I started playing with it, I found the Palladium system a little hard to get. But now, with more experience with it and having read and played other systems, I find it quite easy to handle past the character creation.
Savage Worlds reads horribly but sings at the game table.
I initially dismissed Dungeon Crawl Classics as "trying too hard" — though I have yet to play it, it's growing on me; I've got to try it out some day.
Serenity is the one that comes to mind. The game has one of the worst organised rulebooks that I've ever come across with things that relate to each other in strangely different places. It's a damn nightmare to GM as a result.
However once you get some organised notes of how the system actually plays the game system itself works alright and we've enjoyed playing the game. I haven't seen the revised (Firefly) system but hopefully the rules are written much better there than they are in the original book.
4th Edition D&D, due to a combination of word of mouth and getting a chance to play more than a couple of disappointing Game Day events. It was only a few sessions of Encounters, but it still helped me appreciate the system better.
Quote from: trechriron;803081BRP. At first CoC bored me, the system felt flat, and it generally didn't inspire me. [...] the system is so easy to modify, quick, and new players just seem to "get it" fast. It also fades away in game play. Super easy to GM.
Same here, it is a bit like the AK-47 of rpg systems : no matter what the conditions are (low prep time, tired players, tired GM...) it just works. I switched my
Laundry campaign to BRP again and I'm dusting off my
Hawkmoon and
Stormbringer books... I'm even considering using the
Renaissance rules to run
Lamentations of the Flame Princess adventures.
D&D4e. The playtest reports and word of mouth made it sound like crap, and little different from 3.x which I'd avoided. As it turned out, there was actually a pretty good skirmish game in there.
However, we later soured on it simply because combat took so long and pushed out everything else. Fine in short stints, but we couldn't do it week-in, week-out.
Palladium, TSR FASERIP Marvel, Sandbox-style D&D, Nightlife, White Wolf's Streetfighter, and a lot of other "Stupid", "Childish", "Outdated", and "Cartoony" games.
It took me a long time to just relax and enjoy a silly, fun, adventure game with friends instead of trying for Important High Art Through Improvisational Storytelling. A lot of games that I once turned my nose up at during the Clinton years are now among my favorites.
Unknown Armies.
A friend ran a one-shot of UA for my group back in 2003, and he recommended that I grab a copy. When I first read it, I was very put-off by the tone of the writing. I thought that it tried too hard to be edgy and hip that it clouded an otherwise cool concept. There were times when I'd read a chapter, and then feel like throwing the book across the room. Eventually, I sold my copy and then picked it up again 4 years ago.
Now, I guess I just have thicker skin, and ignore what originally irritated me. I still haven't gotten around to running UA, but someday... someday...
Quote from: K Peterson;803185Unknown Armies.
A friend ran a one-shot of UA for my group back in 2003, and he recommended that I grab a copy. When I first read it, I was very put-off by the tone of the writing. I thought that it tried too hard to be edgy and hip that it clouded an otherwise cool concept. There were times when I'd read a chapter, and then feel like throwing the book across the room. Eventually, I sold my copy and then picked it up again 4 years ago.
Now, I guess I just have thicker skin, and ignore what originally irritated me. I still haven't gotten around to running UA, but someday... someday...
UA is
incredible with a good gamemaster and smart, cool players. The simple and intuitive rules are genius and some of the one-shot adventures are classics. It's a forgotten masterpiece.
Savage Worlds. At first, I got the test-drive rules, and it looked like a bog standard generic system with a funny way of describing values (dice instead of stats).
Only later when I got the first edition cheap for 5 euro did it click, and did I realize the many hidden shortcuts within the system.
Marvel Super Heroes. At first I got the Advanced set (considering that is probably the most evolved), and found it a mess with a lot of fiddly bits.
Finding and reading the Original Basic set OTOH... That was magic. Pure magic.
Dragon Storm: Its an RPG that is a CCG? WTF! But hey, the starters come with a prepacked character and DM set? Ok. And oooh? You play a unicorn that fires death rays from their horn? A gargoyle that walks through stone? Oh and you are supposedly the villains of the setting? Once you got past the CCG part it was a darn good game.
MSH: I was kinda the reverse of the poster above. The basic set was kinda bland. But the Expert set was spot on. Still my favorite superhero RPG.
Indiana Jones RPG: gawd the illustrations in it were horrible! agh! But if you got past that it had a rather nice little system to it and it had a great car/foot chase abstracted system that felt right.
Conan RPG: Obscure and at first glance kinda bland. But its got a pretty good system and I liked the character generation method.
Oddly, most of my favourite RPGs were ones that I had a relatively strong dislike or distrust for going in. I think they remain my favourites as they had to convince me they were good RPGs.
- WFRP2e: I was a 1e fanboy and refused to believe that 2e could be better. I was wrong.
- Exalted 1e: I was fairly dismissive of WW doing a fantasy RPG. But again I was wrong.
- Dungeon World: I initially reacted badly to its popularity and seemingly reinvention of the wheel. But once I got over myself, I discovered an excellent game that could teach an old dog a few tricks.
- Atlantis the Second Age: I didn't expect much from it at all TBH. Now its my favourite RPG.
- D&D4e: I had all but written it off until I first played it. And then I found that it was so much fun.
Quote from: Omega;803298MSH: I was kinda the reverse of the poster above. The basic set was kinda bland. But the Expert set was spot on. Still my favorite superhero RPG.
Heretic ;) Now we must incite an edition war. TO THE DEATH!
Quote from: Skyrock;803391Heretic ;) Now we must incite an edition war. TO THE DEATH!
Blood makes the grass grow!
:popcorn:
I'm going to say HERO 6th...I bought it and immediately detested it. There was nothing worthwhile to the game, and surely nothing I couldn't do with the BBB or my old Champions books. Then I actually made a character and ran a sample combat. Now I think it's probably the most elegant, comprehensive system ever. If you're willing to put in the effort, you can run whatever genre you want. But, like FUDGE, it's not really an rgp...it's a toolkit to create your own rpg. Pragmatically, it's easier to just play D&D. If I was financially independent and could spend a month designing a campaign, HERO would be the way to go.
Star Wars D6 (or D6 in general). Didn't like it all when it came out, then when I got burned out on GURPs I was looking for a different, simpler multi-genre game, so I got the D6 System book and it just clicked with me.
Call of Cthulhu--6th Edition specifically, but it goes a little beyond that. It's sort of more than the game, but the genre itself that grew on me.
For years I scoffed at "mythos" type games--it just didn't appeal to me, despite liking the Lovecraftian elements in Hellboy, Buffy, etc. However, getting a chance to really play a longer campaign, dig in and explore the system made my like the game, and come to appreciate the genre much more than I ever thought I would. Presently, the only games I'm in at the Big Purple are of the cosmic horror genre--two were CoC 6th (one recently ended) and the other is Sine Nomine's "DIY Mythos" game Silent Legions--which I even backed on Kickstarter! So CoC really turned things around for me.
Another one for my list.
Tunnels & Trolls: At a glance it looks rather simplistic. Two and a half classes, really spartan design. (Which for me is not a detraction. I like rules pared down to the basics.) But after finally getting an in depth look at it at Liz Danfourths urging I saw that the set up works well and the combat mechanic for group combat was fun as it rendered mass combat down to two rolls and the open nature of the chargen meant you could tinker as you pleased. Not to mention theres a batch of solo adventures. Some of which can be played with groups.
Well, I didn't dig 4E much, but I'm beginning to re-examine the way magic worked, as well as the encounter-based design. One of the things I don't care much for when it comes to our OS game is the attrition-based mindset you have to have when designing challenge. I sort of like the idea of going in mostly full up. Of course, encounters that are hours and hours long aren't my cup of tea, either, so I won't go fully back to 4E anytime soon. But I wouldn't be completely close-minded to a simplified version of the system (which, I guess, 5E kinda sorta is in some ways). Don't know if that counts as "grows on you," though, as I ain't re-sold.
I'm a serial offender here. I tend to be skeptical of just about every new RPG anyone tries to show me. Then I actually sit and play it, have a blast, and wonder why I ever doubted the recommendation.
So basically, most of them.
Another for Savage Worlds.
It's clunky and needs minor house ruling. Come to think of it, D&D was always clunky and needed small fixes. I like tinkering with mechanics.
Talislanta - After being neck-deep in D&D for years. A player made a case to try something different and offered up Talislanta. At first I was like "WTF is this weird shit?" Then the system!... it all started to click and the S&S vibe swept me away.
Still loving it and all its descendants - Atlantis 2nd Age, Hellas, etc. I'll always say Talislanta is one of the most under-rated games ever made in TTRPG's.
Quote from: tenbones;804114Talislanta - After being neck-deep in D&D for years. A player made a case to try something different and offered up Talislanta. At first I was like "WTF is this weird shit?" Then the system!... it all started to click and the S&S vibe swept me away.
Still loving it and all its descendants - Atlantis 2nd Age, Hellas, etc. I'll always say Talislanta is one of the most under-rated games ever made in TTRPG's.
Couldn't recall if I had ever looked at Talislanta. I did a quick Internet search and I was suprised to see that Talislanta.com shows up on my search with the notation "This site may be hacked."
Weird.
what browser are you using? I've looked at it with three different ones, all updated. And I get nothing indicating that.
Quote from: tenbones;804141what browser are you using? I've looked at it with three different ones, all updated. And I get nothing indicating that.
Google search via IE9.
It's a thing Google does - see here (https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/190597?hl=en).
Gods below, there are people voluntarily using any version of Internet Explorer?
I've not had a game grow on me yet. I usually either enjoy them or I don't.
Great question.
GURPS. While I love the source material (I have a large collection of 3rd ed books, and backfill regularly), I just found the game ... shudder. I mean, I was in High School when Man-to-Man and then GURPS were released. Somewhere out there is my lost notebook with M2M and my handwritten notes for adding magic. But as soon as the GURPS box hit, I was yawn. Worse, when I played a few years later in college, it was an awful fucking experience. GURPS was on my no-play list for decades.
The other year, I decided to give it a try and used 1st/3rd to power some Harn campaigning. It was exquisite! The use of d6, the portability (I went old school professor style and gave my players small photocopies of the rules), the old sheets. All of it. So good.
Rolemaster / Spacemaster. I wanted to like, but boring, dry, meh. And math and tables ... good gravy! I had the SM2 boxed set, and wanted to like it on release. It seemed so ... boring. Maybe it was the style, the print, I dunno. Plus, no one wanted to play.
I had a chance to acquire and read and run RM2 recently, and while it wasn't the same experience as GURPS for me, it was totally viable. Funny how my view changes with access to POD/personal copier technology along with a couple decades of hardcore business math and such.
For Spacemaster, I've really found the source materials so much more usable and enjoyable in recent years than on-release. Maybe nostalgia, or just that I do a lot more tool kitting and "library research" when putting together games now, and it provides some decent stuff for the mill.
GURPS is a game that's actually worth getting sourcebooks for even if you don't play or like the system.
(I'm in that category)
Amber Diceless, but then I realized that I wasn't put off by the system, so much as the author's tone throughout.
Long time ago, I picked up AD&D 2E, but I had it excised and a skin patch over the divot. Hasn't come back yet.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmice;804363Long time ago, I picked up AD&D 2E, but I had it excised and a skin patch over the divot. Hasn't come back yet.
Give it a few more years and the right DM.
;)
D&D 3e. It took me a long time to abandon my prior campaigns and books (and of course I ultimately went back to them).
D&D 3rd.
When I first looked at it, it seemed OK and I gave it a try. Was fun, but didn't have the level of options or customizability that I prefer. After a number of splats came out - I really started enjoying it.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;804362Amber Diceless, but then I realized that I wasn't put off by the system, so much as the author's tone throughout.
Seriously? What about the tone??
Quote from: Phillip;803063I'm delighted to read of that Torg experience, since my own - as GM - started very enthusiastic but quickly cooled. I might appreciate it better today.
Heroes Unlimited is one I only very recently came to like - not as much as other comicbook-hero games, but now I would at least be glad to play. Reading the handbook ultimately changed my view, and for years I kept getting turned off from that when I had barely begun. I was well used to Siembieda's disjointed style, but the HU book somehow was too much.
I've recently come to really enjoy the Palladium stuff. I like that the publisher jams his personal preferences right in there ("No one is neutral," "Mega heroes are boring," etc.). The Heroes Unlimited GM Guide has some really neat ideas jammed in amongst all that cruddy '90s-Image-heroes-are-grim-and-gritty style artwork. I especially like the combat rules and find them a vast improvement over D&D. There's also a certain charm to the abbreviations for attributes: M.E., P.S., S.D.C., honestly I have to write them all out to remember them. The books tend to be fun to read.
Ninjas & Superspies coupled with Mystic China is a hoot and a half.
And of course Revised Recon, the non-Palladium Palladium game, should be acknowledged as a classic in the genre.
Quote from: Will;804357GURPS is a game that's actually worth getting sourcebooks for even if you don't play or like the system.
(I'm in that category)
I think I've played GURPS all of once so far. Yet I've gotten mileage out of Aztecs, Japan, Swashbucklers, Supers, Cliffhangers, Espionage, Horror, Arabian Nights, Space, Cops, Mysteries...always have my eye out for used copies on the held at the local games store to see what might be available on the cheap.
Classic Traveller. Played it very early on, moved on to other games, but my appreciation for it has grown in the 2000s. It's like D&D - very much idiosyncratic, with emergent properties in play that are almost inexhaustible.