I tend to divide RPGs into a couple of different groups: those that have good systems, and those that have good settings. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of RPGs can think of a few games that have great settings, but where the system was bad (alot of TSRs non-D&D settings e.g Alternity, Amazing Engine are cases in point; I'd consider Shadowrun and Earthdawn two games that likewise sell primarily on setting. Probably Palladium, going on common opinion. On the other extreme, for all the "Generic" systems (GURPS, of late Savage Worlds), the primarily sell is probably system because there is no setting; if the system is awful the prospective buyer will go play something else.
So question is:
a) can anyone thing of any games with both a great setting and a great system?
b) if not, why? Is it just that few people have the sort of skill set to create a setting that is compelling, and build really shining mechanics?
Or is there some sort of direct conflict between the two? (As shown, perhaps, with the 3E/4E D&D shift where all the fluff was nuked to allow for greater balance and etc.).
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;533909I tend to divide RPGs into a couple of different groups: those that have good systems, and those that have good settings. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of RPGs can think of a few games that have great settings, but where the system was bad (alot of TSRs non-D&D settings e.g Alternity, Amazing Engine are cases in point; I'd consider Shadowrun and Earthdawn two games that likewise sell primarily on setting. Probably Palladium, going on common opinion. On the other extreme, for all the "Generic" systems (GURPS, of late Savage Worlds), the primarily sell is probably system because there is no setting; if the system is awful the prospective buyer will go play something else.
So question is:
a) can anyone thing of any games with both a great setting and a great system?
b) if not, why? Is it just that few people have the sort of skill set to create a setting that is compelling, and build really shining mechanics?
Or is there some sort of direct conflict between the two? (As shown, perhaps, with the 3E/4E D&D shift where all the fluff was nuked to allow for greater balance and etc.).
A) Elric, CoC, Warhammer.
B) The 'problem' is, that RPGs are mostly a province of geeks - and as such, we are prone to finding, sooner or later, all those bloody details that don't quite work, or don't quite make sense :D.
Quote from: Rincewind1;533913A) Elric, CoC, Warhammer.
Yeah, that would be my immediate list too. (Though I'm not sure Elric is a great representative of the source material...but who cares, it's a great system and the setting material is presented well.)
Quote from: misterguignol;533914Yeah, that would be my immediate list too. (Though I'm not sure Elric is a great representative of the source material...but who cares, it's a great system and the setting material is presented well.)
It's no Warhammer in terms of "All you need in 1 book" - if you don't know/have Stormbringer saga, you will need the guideline. But the mechanics are quite good I'd say. Warhammer's mechanic is not the best thing since sliced bread, but it creates enough of an illusion (especially as compared to DnD) of gritty realism, that fits the setting quite well.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;533909I tend to divide RPGs into a couple of different groups: those that have good systems, and those that have good settings. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of RPGs can think of a few games that have great settings, but where the system was bad (alot of TSRs non-D&D settings e.g Alternity, Amazing Engine are cases in point; I'd consider Shadowrun and Earthdawn two games that likewise sell primarily on setting. Probably Palladium, going on common opinion. On the other extreme, for all the "Generic" systems (GURPS, of late Savage Worlds), the primarily sell is probably system because there is no setting; if the system is awful the prospective buyer will go play something else.
So question is:
a) can anyone thing of any games with both a great setting and a great system?
b) if not, why? Is it just that few people have the sort of skill set to create a setting that is compelling, and build really shining mechanics?
Or is there some sort of direct conflict between the two? (As shown, perhaps, with the 3E/4E D&D shift where all the fluff was nuked to allow for greater balance and etc.).
A)
Traveller, Cyberpunk 2020, d6 Star Wars, others mentioned above
B)
Traveller suffered from this when TNE came out.
Mekton II and
Mekton Zeta while good anime mecha games, never could seem to get a great setting created for them by R. Talsorian Games and it wasn't until Janus Publications produced
The Jovian Chronicles that a setting worthy of the game system came about. Come to think of it,
Star Wars became mired in suck once WotC tried to shoehorn the game into the d20 system.
While some settings do not work with some systems. Some systems are a very poor fit for some settings.
I'm trying to think of a great setting. Hmmm....
I don't ever recall RPG players ever screaming, "If only this RPG used the blah blah setting!" Or, "I need a RPG system that works within the blah blah setting I love so much!" Or even, "I need an RPG for my awesome setting!"
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;533925I'm trying to think of a great setting. Hmmm....
I don't ever recall RPG players ever screaming, "If only this RPG used the blah blah setting!" Or, "I need a RPG system that works within the blah blah setting I love so much!" Or even, "I need an RPG for my awesome setting!"
I had heard it quite a bit.
Gaiman's Sandman (Scion's a big failure in this aspect), Exalted (well, SOME people like the setting and it's premise), Ravenloft (I'd say that an idea from RPG.net to outfit it for BRP is a good one, especially as BRP has a system that's already quite similar to Dark Powers). 3 from the top off my head.
Quote from: Rincewind1;533913A) Elric, CoC, Warhammer.
B) The 'problem' is, that RPGs are mostly a province of geeks - and as such, we are prone to finding, sooner or later, all those bloody details that don't quite work, or don't quite make sense :D.
True. I think systems are more prone to nit-picking, while settings endure (and get a new ruleset every so often).
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;533925I'm trying to think of a great setting. Hmmm....
I don't ever recall RPG players ever screaming, "If only this RPG used the blah blah setting!" Or, "I need a RPG system that works within the blah blah setting I love so much!" Or even, "I need an RPG for my awesome setting!"
Players are more likely to play in the setting and then defend the system as perfect, despite its flaws.
Harnmaster/Harn
What attracts me first to an RPG is its "setting". I love to look at books with awesome artwork on their covers. Space 1889 is a setting I'm interested in playing. But then I start reading about the RPG system used (both editions over the years).... Then I put the book with the cool looking setting on its cover back on the store shelf.
Eclipse Phase is another one I've put back on the shelf because of the RPG system. Shadowrun's setting (Seattle) did not interest me, so I did not get to its RPG system.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;533909So question is:
a) can anyone thing of any games with both a great setting and a great system?
Pendragon and
Flashing Blades.
Setting v. System is a false dichotomy.
Quote from: Benoist;533949Setting v. System is a false dichotomy.
True Dat.
Any Setting will work with ANY System - as long as you have a Good and Creative GM.
It all goes back to the GM.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;533954True Dat.
Any Setting will work with ANY System - as long as you have a Good and Creative GM.
It all goes back to the GM.
- Ed C.
Sure, but it's a bit like riding on a rocky road in a Volkswagen Bug and a Jeep. Both are doable, especially if you are a good driver, but it's just comfier to take the Jeep.
Quote from: Benoist;533949Setting v. System is a false dichotomy.
I disagree.
Some systems are better suited to some settings.
Quote from: Benoist;533949Setting v. System is a false dichotomy.
I'd say that a system can be designed specifically to support a setting, and that can involve losses in other areas.
Elric gets mentioned earlier; it for instance loses in balancedness (your favourite thing, I know) by letting you play beggars next to Melnibonean sorcerors.
Mostly though, I'm just trying to work out why there are lots of games out there like Shadowrun or Exalted.
Quote from: jeff37923;533966I disagree.
Some systems are better suited to some settings.
What would be an example of a system which is completely unsuited for a particular setting, which has been published?
Quote from: ggroy;533974What would be an example of a system which is completely unsuited for a particular setting, which has been published?
The d20 system when applied to almost any setting with modern firearms. The d20 system when applied to
Star Wars was one which I found completely failed to emulate the action in the films or TV series.
Quote from: Benoist;533949Setting v. System is a false dichotomy.
Would you rather play 17th century swashbucklers using 2e
AD&D and
A Mighty Fortress, or
Flashing Blades?
Quote from: Black Vulmea;534024Would you rather play 17th century swashbucklers using 2e AD&D and A Mighty Fortress, or Flashing Blades?
What kind of 17th century swashbucklers do I want?
Well - I recently adapted a system for a setting - MRQ2, which became Legend half way through the job, for a setting and published it (Pundit recently reviewed the result, it's in the Reviews section of this site).
The question of whether I could adapt any system to the setting is a difficult one. Partly because the setting evolved using earlier RQ versions, so D100/BRP/RQ is in the DNA. And I have not played any level or class-based system for some time - decades in fact; so that sort of approach is not in my mindset and I would not know where to start. So if I said it wouldn't work with Xe D&D, that's probably a result of my limitations, not the system's.
Having said that, I did briefly attempt to write this for MRQ1 and found that edition was so clunky and wrong that I was using the setting adaptation to try and correct the problems in the system and soon gave up. No such issues with MRQ2/Legend - it gave me a tool box that I found a pleasure to use to build what I was trying to achieve.
So there's probably no reason why you can't match a setting to any system, but it surely demands a really good (flexible) system and a really good grasp of it so you know how you can adapt it without breaking something. Undertanding the point of the setting you are using it for goes without saying.
I guess you can also deliberately set out to use a system RAW out of the box so it demands no thought on the part of the GM, but then it will just look like a worked up version of the 'implied' setting of the rules, I can't see how it would feel distinctive up against the system publisher's 'house' setting.
I would say Feng Shui but it has apparently some issues with the One Stat TO Rule Them All trope. Same with Qin.
Marvel and MSHAG?
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;533909a) can anyone thing of any games with both a great setting and a great system?
Chaosium Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer/Elric, Warhammer RPG (1e, especially), Marvel Superheroes (FASERIP).
Quote from: RandallS;534065Chaosium Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer/Elric, Warhammer RPG (1e, especially), Marvel Superheroes (FASERIP).
Are you just listing the games on your shelf? What is so great about their settings and their systems?
Quote from: ggroy;533974What would be an example of a system which is completely unsuited for a particular setting, which has been published?
As much as I love it, I would have to say that the MERP system (essentially 'Rolemaster lite') was not the best fit for Middle-earth.
Quote from: Rincewind1;533913A) Elric, CoC...
Quote from: RandallS;534065Chaosium Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer/Elric...
Pendragon as well.
Chaosium always did remarkably good job in tweaking BRP for their licensed or historical settings.
Pity they only have CoC now (and the generic BRP rules, or course).
Quote from: misterguignol;533914Yeah, that would be my immediate list too. (Though I'm not sure Elric is a great representative of the source material...but who cares, it's a great system and the setting material is presented well.)
I actually think that the
Elric of Melnibone supplement for MRQII (now Legend) does a better job of reflecting what happens in the novels (specifically, the way magic works). But Elric/SB also did a great job in capturing the
spirit or 'ethos' of the setting. And both are BRP-derived systems, of course.
Quote from: Akrasia;534075As much as I love it, I would have to say that the MERP system (essentially 'Rolemaster lite') was not the best fit for Middle-earth.
Yes. I would have liked MERP more if it had been a generic fantasy game.
Quote from: Akrasia;534075As much as I love it, I would have to say that the MERP system (essentially 'Rolemaster lite') was not the best fit for Middle-earth.
Despite some clunkers that could have been spotted by proper playtesting (take NOTE ffg), Decipher's Lord of the Rings rpg was a very good system with enjoyable playtesting and production values (though if'n you dislike movie stills you might disagree). MERP never spoke to me, though I remember seeing the ads back in the day from Games Workshop's import.
Quote from: Akrasia;534076Pendragon as well.
Chaosium always did remarkably good job in tweaking BRP for their licensed or historical settings.
Pity they only have CoC now (and the generic BRP rules, or course).
They did put out something for burp called Dragon Lines; Guardians of the Forbidden City, a wuxia setting.
Quote from: Claudius;534088Yes. I would have liked MERP more if it had been a generic fantasy game.
That would pretty much be Rolemaster.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;534024Would you rather play 17th century swashbucklers using 2e AD&D and A Mighty Fortress, or Flashing Blades?
Well I probably should have explained what I meant because everyone seems to have misinterpreted it. Setting v. System is a false dichotomy, by which I mean, these are not opposites, or elements that should be opposed to each other artificially as though they were not overlapping in a role playing game. It's like the fallacy of "fluff" and "crunch" - it's an artificial opposition that does not reflect how these two elements work with each other.
Setting and system are part of the broad design of an RPG. These elements ideally blend into one another in a way that makes the whole stronger than the sum of its parts. The world is depicted by descriptions and elements of the rules that help support the emulation of that world. In that sense, setting and system are part of the same thing. Opposing them would be like asking "motor or wheels, which do you prefer to use with your car?"
So in my mind, a game where the rules and the world they are supposed to emulate conflict with each other is symptomatic of bad game design, an all-too-common exception, rather than the rule, or what's supposed to be the rule itself.
I'll take Flashing Blades over AD&D2 any time of the day, because Flashing Blades actually is a good game.
Quote from: Koltar;533954Any Setting will work with ANY System - as long as you have a Good and Creative GM.
It all goes back to the GM.
Probably, but it wouldn't necessarily be the same game you're playing. Using GURPS with Barbarians of Lemuria for example, would not result in the over-the-top heroic pulp fantasy BoL is intended to emulate. Which is fine, if that's what you're going for. I've played in a GURPS Star Wars game that was loads of fun, but I'm not sure it really emulated the kind of action we see in the movies very accurately.
Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;534184Probably, but it wouldn't necessarily be the same game you're playing. Using GURPS with Barbarians of Lemuria for example, would not result in the over-the-top heroic pulp fantasy BoL is intended to emulate. Which is fine, if that's what you're going for. I've played in a GURPS Star Wars game that was loads of fun, but I'm not sure it really emulated the kind of action we see in the movies very accurately.
This is very true. The system serves as the physics of the setting. You can't change the system without changing the setting in some way. I mean, you
could run
Over the Edge using
Rolemaster, but the result would be very different from a standard
Over the Edge game.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;534202I mean, you could run Over the Edge using Rolemaster, but the result would be very different from a standard Over the Edge game.
And, it would make baby-Jonathan Tweet cry.
Talislanta--while the setting has been pulled into various forms, the 4E set fit the world perfectly. Interestingly enough Hellas works to fit to its world and is a variation of Talislanta's System.
Of course where is the line drawn? I mean Marvel Superheroes had a great setting, and a great system--that hasn't stopped people from trying to come up with a game half as loved as the original MSH/Faserip system.
Superheroes in general nudge the "generic" border because they have to do so many different things within their framework--wizards, mutants, spaceships and so on. I think my own H&S game is the least "generic" supers game there is--since while it does those things, it does them by focusing on the heroism and motivation aspects of play--on doing what comic books do--rather than doing what a game does to mimic superpowers.
Quote from: Benoist;534130Well I probably should have explained what I meant because everyone seems to have misinterpreted it. Setting v. System is a false dichotomy, by which I mean, these are not opposites, or elements that should be opposed to each other artificially as though they were not overlapping in a role playing game. It's like the fallacy of "fluff" and "crunch" - it's an artificial opposition that does not reflect how these two elements work with each other.
Setting and system are part of the broad design of an RPG. These elements ideally blend into one another in a way that makes the whole stronger than the sum of its parts. The world is depicted by descriptions and elements of the rules that help support the emulation of that world. In that sense, setting and system are part of the same thing. Opposing them would be like asking "motor or wheels, which do you prefer to use with your car?"
This is what I think, Ben!
-clash
Quote from: Silverlion;534204Superheroes in general nudge the "generic" border because they have to do so many different things within their framework--wizards, mutants, spaceships and so on. I think my own H&S game is the least "generic" supers game there is--since while it does those things, it does them by focusing on the heroism and motivation aspects of play--on doing what comic books do--rather than doing what a game does to mimic superpowers.
I agree. H&S nails comic books perfectly. Which is why Klaxon is going in an entirely other direction for LUITS!. Why compete with perfection? :D
-clash
Well, I was seriously asking as part of the OP if there was some conflict between setting and system, but enough people have come up with games that are fairly strong for both, to prove that untrue.
We've had some good discussion in the thread though. Currently my thinking is at:
*there are definitely settings that are harder to design good systems for; superhero games for instance.
*for alot of the games where both system and setting were good, for alot of these the primary draw is still one or the other - usually the setting. Call of Cthulhu for instance I have to agree the basic system is quite solid, but that its also been converted to d20 and Gumshoe (and probably other things) shows that the setting is the main thing of interest.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;534202The system serves as the physics of the setting. You can't change the system without changing the setting in some way.
Yes. If I ever get to run
Unhallowed Metropolis I plan to use Cinematic Unisystem, which in more than one way is almost the opposite of the game's own rules set, but that's exactly my intention.
There's also the case where a particular system just happens to be someone's favourite and therefore he uses it for everything. In that case he's probably not intentionally changing the "physics" of the setting, but just feels most comfortable with a different rules set and isn't terribly concerned with emulating a certain genre or style. The whole d20 debacle would be an example of taking this approach a bit too far.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;534202I mean, you could run Over the Edge using Rolemaster, but the result would be very different from a standard Over the Edge game.
Doing the opposite would be less cumbersome and masochistic.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;534203And, it would make baby-Jonathan Tweet cry.
Who the heck is Jonathan Tweet?
Amber is the best match System for Setting. Although I think the system can be improved and I think my house rules improve it.
The whole diceless mechanic is wonderfully libertating and the fact that the Auction character creation process deliberately creates tension between the PCs that later plays out in game is a wonderful way to get that core part of the setting across.
The Auction is in fact one of most stunning pieces of game design I have seen (even if it needs a bit more guidance than is given in the rule book).
Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;534403Yes. If I ever get to run Unhallowed Metropolis I plan to use Cinematic Unisystem, which in more than one way is almost the opposite of the game's own rules set, but that's exactly my intention.
That would rock.
Unhallowed Metropolis has an even more depressing setting than Shadowrun. I didn't think that was possible.
I rate Pendragon as the best setting/system combo that I have ever seen.
The system was designed purely for roleplaying as knights in the Arthurian mythos and it seems to be the blueprint for getting system to match setting, done right.
Quote from: PaladinCA;534565Unhallowed Metropolis has an even more depressing setting than Shadowrun. I didn't think that was possible.
I take it you've never played
Kult? :)
Quote from: Dan Davenport;534566I take it you've never played Kult? :)
Man, I did. Had a lot of fun in the process but... yeah. Dark RPG if there ever was one.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;534566I take it you've never played Kult? :)
I love using that game for my own setting/vision of Mage the Awakening.:)
Quote from: Dan Davenport;534566I take it you've never played Kult? :)
I have not. Horror is not usually my genre of choice.
We had a GM at our local RPG Meetup that is preparing to run a game of Unhallowed Metropolis at Kubla Con next month. She wanted to test out her adventure with us at the meetup event.
She did a good job. We all had a great time. But the setting was no place I would ever want to be! :D
Quote from: jeff37923;533975The d20 system when applied to almost any setting with modern firearms. The d20 system when applied to Star Wars was one which I found completely failed to emulate the action in the films or TV series.
Yeah, they stuffed a lot of stuff into D20 very poorly. Farscape, Wheel of Time, and especially Iron Kingdoms, awful.
As for one of the better System Setting combos, The One Ring, by Neplitio, captures both the details of the setting, and the style of the books adventures.
SIFRP is pretty good too.
Quote from: PaladinCA;534565Unhallowed Metropolis has an even more depressing setting than Shadowrun. I didn't think that was possible.
Switching to Cinematic Unisystem would allow you to actually kick some ass without immediate risk of death or spiritual/moral corruption, making the whole thing a lot less gloomy.
As for Shadowrun's setting being depressing... depressingly silly maybe. I do consider the system to be quite depressing.
Quote from: Dan Davenport;534566I take it you've never played Kult? :)
I played in a Kult game once but if it's supposed to be depressing we were probably doing it wrong. I'd prefer to call it unsettling. Pity the system sucked. Is there actually an edition of this game that has a decent system?
I think most of the Cinematic Unisystem games have a pretty good system-setting-match.
Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;534737...
I think most of the Cinematic Unisystem games have a pretty good system-setting-match.
I agree! I had forgotten completely about
BtVS and
Angel. Those games are great, and capture the feeling of the shows 100%.
BtVS?
Quote from: Rincewind1;534763BtVS?
Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
I have always thought that Unisystem was a great system. Games like Witchcraft/Armageddon/BtVS and Angel were really good games, if sadly underrated and unknown by alot of people.
Quote from: Marleycat;534766I have always thought that Unisystem was a great system. Games like Witchcraft/Armageddon/BtVS and Angel were really good games, if sadly underrated and unknown by alot of people.
And
All Flesh Must Be Eaten. The encyclopedia of Zombie roleplaying.
Pity I've never had the chance to try the system out in practice, much.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;534771And All Flesh Must Be Eaten. The encyclopedia of Zombie roleplaying.
Pity I've never had the chance to try the system out in practice, much.
Never played it or read it. Playing zombies isn't my thing even though I love good zombie movies.:)
I have heard alot of good things about that particular game though.
I hate being too busy with work and my groups to really join into these worthy questions. Carry on...
Although I can think of some improvements to the Cinematic Unisystem, I've got Buffy, Angel, and the Classic Unisystem games Witchcraft.
They do work well, but I think its the neutrality of the system rather than optimal connection to the setting, they work well enough though.
Awesome setting, shit system: Dark Heresy and Exalted. Love both of these games but can't stand to play them because of the mechanics. Urban Arcana for d20, too.
Awesome system, shit setting: Shadowrun. I've heard good things about it, but I can't get into the setting at all.
Shit system, shit setting: nWoD core. Your characters don't even get magic!
Awesome setting, awesome system: Nothing I've played.
Quote from: B.T.;534855Awesome setting, shit system: Dark Heresy and Exalted. Love both of these games but can't stand to play them because of the mechanics. Urban Arcana for d20, too.
Awesome system, shit setting: Shadowrun. I've heard good things about it, but I can't get into the setting at all.
Shit system, shit setting: nWoD core. Your characters don't even get magic!
Awesome setting, awesome system: Nothing I've played.
Partially agree about Dark Heresy like any Warhammer system it doesn't hand hold you like 4e if you understand that, the system is fine. Have no idea about Exalted. You are so fucking wrong about the NWoD blue line I can only assume you're drunk. Shadowrun you're mostly wrong and backwards, in parts (rigging/decking) it has "issues". The setting is awesome sauce.
The default nWoD setting is "awesome"? How so?
Quote from: B.T.;534883The default nWoD setting is "awesome"? How so?
I suppose that would depend on your definition of "awesomeness". But criticizing the
WoD core for the PCs' lack of magical powers is kind of like dismissing
X-Files because Mulder isn't a wizard. That's just not what the basic concept was going for.
Quote from: GrimGent;534892I suppose that would depend on your definition of "awesomeness". But criticizing the WoD core for the PCs' lack of magical powers is kind of like dismissing X-Files because Mulder isn't a wizard. That's just not what the basic concept was going for.
I once played in a Vampire scenario in which Fox Mulder appeared, and he was a Mage... not the greatest rpg experience ever.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;533909I tend to divide RPGs into a couple of different groups: those that have good systems, and those that have good settings. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of RPGs can think of a few games that have great settings, but where the system was bad (alot of TSRs non-D&D settings e.g Alternity, Amazing Engine are cases in point; I'd consider Shadowrun and Earthdawn two games that likewise sell primarily on setting. Probably Palladium, going on common opinion. On the other extreme, for all the "Generic" systems (GURPS, of late Savage Worlds), the primarily sell is probably system because there is no setting; if the system is awful the prospective buyer will go play something else.
So question is:
a) can anyone thing of any games with both a great setting and a great system?
b) if not, why? Is it just that few people have the sort of skill set to create a setting that is compelling, and build really shining mechanics?
Or is there some sort of direct conflict between the two? (As shown, perhaps, with the 3E/4E D&D shift where all the fluff was nuked to allow for greater balance and etc.).
See, I personally believe that every setting needs it's own mechanics/physics engine to match up the physics/magic/combat/defining actions of the setting
and the type of game the creator sees being played in it. Both are equally important to creating the match you are talking about. At the very least, this is the basal reason for houseruling.
The issue comes in when creative folk can write a good setting, and maybe even write clever mechanics, but do not understand these two things and how they synergize.
So, no, I don't think that there is a conflict, just a lack of understanding of what is really involved in this very complicated undertaking.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;534894I once played in a Vampire scenario in which Fox Mulder appeared, and he was a Mage... not the greatest rpg experience ever.
It is common knowledge that the OWoD doesn't play nice. Also it's common knowledge that Mages are the alpha splat in either edition. What they call tier 3, tier 4 for archmages, to use a HtV term that allows you to set the baseline power level and scope of the game.
@BT, the feel and assumption of the Blue Books is X-Files, Conspiracy X and similar. You can easily add magic/psi via Second Sight or even using certain things out of HtV.
Quote from: Silverlion;534806Although I can think of some improvements to the Cinematic Unisystem, I've got Buffy, Angel, and the Classic Unisystem games Witchcraft.
They do work well, but I think its the neutrality of the system rather than optimal connection to the setting, they work well enough though.
I'd agree Cinematic Unisystem could be considered as suiting "cinematic" settings in general, not just the ones it has been used for.
As for AFMBE. Just like its little kid brother Terra Primate, it's a great game though IMHO both would have benefited from including the option of running them with Cinematic Unisystem as well, considering the spectrum of settings they're both covering.
I don't consider Classic Unisystem particularly setting-appropriate, though I guess it works well where something gritty but still relatively light and straight-forward is required. So yeah, it's rather neutral or what some people have perceived of/referred to as "bland".
Quote from: GrimGent;534892I suppose that would depend on your definition of "awesomeness". But criticizing the WoD core for the PCs' lack of magical powers is kind of like dismissing X-Files because Mulder isn't a wizard. That's just not what the basic concept was going for.
Even if that's the case, I still want some magic available for the PCs.
Quote from: B.T.;534991Even if that's the case, I still want some magic available for the PCs.
Easily accomplished just allow Second Sight in the game it's a blue line supplement that details non-dynamic magic and psi for base WoD games. There are other options such as Skinchangers, Ghouls and even Hunter the Vigil set at Tier 1 only, would be legitimate options also for a pure human game depending on the intended focus.
You could even use Witch Hunters from HtV for a more powerful magic option if desired.
Quote from: Marleycat;534908It is common knowledge that the OWoD doesn't play nice.
That's forum wisdom for you. I have not noticed all these issues in the ten years or so I played OWoD, to be honest. It stinks of the same brand of theoretical bullshitism that gave us the rants about the linear fighter and quadratic wizard, when these guys haven't actually played the old editions of the game by the book either.
But what do I know, right? These guys "obviously" know what they're talking about. :rolleyes:
Quote from: B.T.;534991Even if that's the case, I still want some magic available for the PCs.
Then don't play WoD without splat.
Quote from: B.T.;534855Shit system, shit setting: nWoD core. Your characters don't even get magic!
Yeah, right. Call of Cthulhu is such a horrible game too, right? :rolleyes:
Quote from: Benoist;535020That's forum wisdom for you. I have not noticed all these issues in the ten years or so I played OWoD, to be honest. It stinks of the same brand of theoretical bullshitism that gave us the rants about the linear fighter and quadratic wizard, when these guys haven't actually played the old editions of the game by the book either.
But what do I know, right? These guys "obviously" know what they're talking about. :rolleyes:
It can be done I did it many times you just have to decide what your default is concerning some basic issues. Like which universe is primary, mage or not and so on. But regardless the OWoD isn't really meant for crossover. NWoD is far better for it given it was designed from the ground up with that playstyle being a possible assumption.
A much better game for crossover that works with the same themes and genre would be Witchcraft among a couple of others.
It's similar to the LF/QW issue it can and does happen if you as the GM set or enforce any internal realism in your game or setting.
Quote from: Marleycat;535038It can be done I did it many times you just have to decide what your default is concerning some basic issues. Like which universe is primary, mage or not and so on. But regardless the OWoD isn't really meant for crossover. NWoD is far better for it given it was designed from the ground up with that playstyle being a possible assumption.
So that's what you actually mean. I thought you meant something more along the lines of the OWoD system being "broken" or whatnot, which is total bullshit. Yeah, I agree that OWoD is less sympathetic to cross-overs between games. It was far from impossible mind you (we had all kinds of different supernatural creatures in my Paris by Night at the time), but there were risks of getting overboard with mage-garou-gypsies embaulmed as mummies playing at the table if you weren't careful. Also, mages were obviously more powerful than anything else only if you let them get way ahead in terms of Arete and Sphere points. It's actually extremely hard to get the XP to raise those traits as a Mage, compared to say, a Vampire, so in the long run the obvious superiority of one over the other doesn't quite work out the way you'd think in the chronicle. I've had quite a few mage PCs killed by Vampire PCs in my game.
Quote from: Marleycat;535015Easily accomplished just allow Second Sight in the game it's a blue line supplement that details non-dynamic magic and psi for base WoD games.
Right. The core is for playing more or less ordinary people who somehow find themselves up against unknown supernatural forces.
Second Sight adds options for characters who in themselves have been touched by the supernatural, with minor templates such as psychics whose powers are purchased as Merits. The six magical traditions included in the book are "apostle of the dark one", "ceremonial magician", "hedge witch", "shaman", "taoist alchemist", and "vodoun".
Quote from: Benoist;535045So that's what you actually mean. I thought you meant something more along the lines of the OWoD system being "broken" or whatnot, which is total bullshit. Yeah, I agree that OWoD is less sympathetic to cross-overs between games. It was far from impossible mind you (we had all kinds of different supernatural creatures in my Paris by Night at the time), but there were risks of getting overboard with mage-garou-gypsies embaulmed as mummies playing at the table if you weren't careful. Also, mages were obviously more powerful than anything else only if you let them get way ahead in terms of Arete and Sphere points. It's actually extremely hard to get the XP to raise those traits as a Mage, compared to say, a Vampire, so in the long run the obvious superiority of one over the other doesn't quite work out the way you'd think in the chronicle. I've had quite a few mage PCs killed by Vampire PCs in my game.
Exactly, I really couldn't agree more.
The LF/QW is really a spherical cow in my opinion. It can and does happen but only if the GM neither sets or enforces any logic, realism, or consistency in their setting or game.
Quote from: GrimGent;535048Right. The core is for playing more or less ordinary people who somehow find themselves up against unknown supernatural forces. Second Sight adds options for characters who in themselves have been touched by the supernatural, with minor templates such as psychics whose powers are purchased as Merits. The six magical traditions included in the book are "apostle of the dark one", "ceremonial magician", "hedge witch", "shaman", "taoist alchemist", and "vodoun".
Yes, with that book you can change the baseline from X-Files to CoC quick.:)
Quote from: Benoist;535024Yeah, right. Call of Cthulhu is such a horrible game too, right? :rolleyes:
That would be awesome setting, shit system.
Quote from: B.T.;535062That would be awesome setting, shit system.
Do tell?
Quote from: Marleycat;535065Do tell?
I hate everything about the system, from character advancement to the resistance table to...well, I'm trying to think of a reason to like the system.
Quote from: B.T.;535072I hate everything about the system, from character advancement to the resistance table to...well, I'm trying to think of a reason to like the system.
And you hating the system means it ought to be viewed as objective shit why, exactly? Because from where I'm standing, you're about as far from objective truth on pretty much any subject matter as one could possibly get on this board.
Quote from: B.T.;535072I hate everything about the system, from character advancement to the resistance table to...well, I'm trying to think of a reason to like the system.
So your issue is the BRP system? Weird, there's a D20 version out there that's very solid imo.
Quote from: Marleycat;535074So your issue is the BRP system? Weird, there's a D20 version out there that's very solid imo.
And
Trail of Cthulhu, which I've never played but seems to get some respect.
Was Trail of Cthulhu the SW one or the Gumshoe one?
I'd consider system to be passable to good on CoC, although I have this thing about d100s.
I have seen a CoC adventure where there was a huge mismatch/ fight going on between the adventure and the system (Pits of Bengal-Dolum, I think it was called) but given that I'd rate that particular adventure as possibly the worst ever in the history of mankind, that's probably a good thing.
BSJ - Gumshoe one. SW is called Realms of Cthulhu.
Thanks Rince :)
Quote from: Rincewind1;535154SW is called Realms of Cthulhu.
Had no idea there was a Savage Worlds version of Cthulhu.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;535166Had no idea there was a Savage Worlds version of Cthulhu.
It is supposed to be very good, if you like Savage Worlds.
Quote from: Marleycat;535060Yes, with that book you can change the baseline from X-Files to CoC quick.:)
True, considering that the fourth chapter deals with "things that should not be", with loose guidelines for entities ranging from eldritch godlings to reality disruptions, as well as their cultists who may gain powers and rites in exchange for the services rendered. That would work for an actual Cthulhu scenario, too.
(Personally, I'd have wished for more concrete information on the core's God-Machine. It seems like a bit of a missed opportunity.)
Quote from: B.T.Awesome system, shit setting: Shadowrun.
Its the other way around. At least acoording to the general opinion on the net (and in my opinion too).
And I concede the point - if you never read any shadowrun material, the idea of a cyberpunk + fantasy mashup may really sound bizarre. But trust me, if you manage to READ IT sometime, you may have a surprise (I know I had a similar reaction.. "Orks with Uzis ? WTF !?" and then I took a good look on the books and.. "Shit, thats fucking awesome" ).
Quote(Personally, I'd have wished for more concrete information on the core's God-Machine. It seems like a bit of a missed opportunity.)
Yeah, that was one the best background deals in the NWoD. It really helped kill the idea of the Technocracy in my mind and set up both that the Anscension War should and is about ideas and that magic and using magic is power and ultimate power both which corrupt without wisdom, and even then...:)
Quote from: Koltar;533954True Dat.
Any Setting will work with ANY System - as long as you have a Good and Creative GM.
It all goes back to the GM.
- Ed C.
Though to be fair a good and creative GM will choose a system that is genre appropriate.
Not much point in running a Barabarians of lemuria heroic S&S style game with say Vampire the masquerade, when you could actually just use BoL or similar. In the same way that running a gritty horror game will be easier with say Call of Chthulu than BoL.
Choosing an inappropriate system for a game is just making a rod for your own back. Choosing an appropriate system helps the GM with the "heavy lifting".
Quote from: AikiGhost;541056Though to be fair a good and creative GM will choose a system that is genre appropriate.
Not much point in running a Barabarians of lemuria heroic S&S style game with say Vampire the masquerade, when you could actually just use BoL or similar. In the same way that running a gritty horror game will be easier with say Call of Chthulu than BoL.
Choosing an inappropriate system for a game is just making a rod for your own back. Choosing an appropriate system helps the GM with the "heavy lifting".
Vreeg's first Rule of Setting Design "Make sure the ruleset you are using matches the setting and game you want to play, because the setting and game WILL eventually match the system."
Part of being a good GM is play at the table; running a good game, and making the magic happen with the tools at hand.
Another part of being a good GM is designing/creating a game that synergizes setting and system. Saying that any system works with any setting with a good GM is actually incorrect; a criterion for being a good GM is the ability to recognize the ramifications of rules and matching the a ruleset with a setting and playstyle. A good GM does not force the round peg in the square hole for 4 hours twice a week.
Great Settings & Rules:
Amber
Ars Magica
Call of Cthulhu
Changeling: The Lost
Doctor Who: Adventures in Time & Space
James Bond: 007
Jovian Chronicles
Marvel Superheroes (FASERIP)
The One Ring
Paranoia
Pendragon
Prince Valiant
Reve: The Dream Oroborus
Star Wars (WEG)
Tenchi Muyo
Tribe 8
Warhammer 1st Edition
Great Settings, Crappy Rules:
pretty much everything by Palladium
Aliens
Blue Planet
Castle Falkenstein
Chill
Dangerquest
Dark Sun
Deliria
Discworld
Everway
Fading Suns
Godlike
Hellboy
Indiana Jones
Jorune
Kult
Lord of the Rings
Masters of the Universe
Mechwarrior
M.E.R.P.
Nephilim
Over The Edge
Planescape
Shadowrun
SLA Industries
Space 1889
Teenagers From Outer Space (2nd edition, before it became an anime game)
TORG
Traveller
The Willow Game
Great Rules, Crappy/Inappropriate Settings:
Blue Rose
Dallas
Blood of Heroes
Ironclaw
Marvel Saga
Riddle of Steel
7th Sea
Warhammer 3rd ed
Quote from: Black Vulmea;533946Pendragon and Flashing Blades.
Scooped.
I would through L5R into this list. It is a perfect marriage of setting and system.
Quote from: TristramEvans;541220Great Settings, Crappy Rules:
pretty much everything by Palladium
Aliens
Blue Planet
Castle Falkenstein
Chill
Dangerquest
Dark Sun
Deliria
Discworld
Everway
Fading Suns
Godlike
Hellboy
Indiana Jones
Jorune
Kult
Lord of the Rings
Masters of the Universe
Mechwarrior
M.E.R.P.
Nephilim
Over The Edge
Planescape
Shadowrun
SLA Industries
Space 1889
Teenagers From Outer Space (2nd edition, before it became an anime game)
TORG
Traveller
The Willow Game
Is it wrong that I prefer this list of games over the other 2 sets?
Quote from: Marleycat;543621Is it wrong that I prefer this list of games over the other 2 sets?
Yes. you should feel very bad. :)
Actually some of them are very decent games, though a few (Aliens, MotU, etc) are frankly unplayable.
Hmm...so what's Masters of the Universe like? Never seen a copy of this.
Any ideas/mechanics worth salvaging in there?
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;543650Hmm...so what's Masters of the Universe like? Never seen a copy of this.
Any ideas/mechanics worth salvaging in there?
No, absolutely not. Except maybe the nostalgia factor of the box art.
It was really, really, really bad. And kinda nonsensical. Imagine one of the worst examples of crippleware "intro RPG" games combined with the type of boardgame one might have found on the back of a cereal box in the 80s.
Ah well, thanks :)