The default nWoD setting is "awesome"?  How so?

Quote from: B.T.;534883The default nWoD setting is "awesome"?  How so?

I suppose that would depend on your definition of "awesomeness". But criticizing the WoD core for the PCs' lack of magical powers is kind of like dismissing X-Files because Mulder isn't a wizard. That's just not what the basic concept was going for.

Quote from: GrimGent;534892I suppose that would depend on your definition of "awesomeness". But criticizing the WoD core for the PCs' lack of magical powers is kind of like dismissing X-Files because Mulder isn't a wizard. That's just not what the basic concept was going for.

I once played in a Vampire scenario in which Fox Mulder appeared, and he was a Mage... not the greatest rpg experience ever.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;533909I tend to divide RPGs into a couple of different groups: those that have good systems, and those that have good settings. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of RPGs can think of a few games that have great settings, but where the system was bad (alot of TSRs non-D&D settings e.g Alternity, Amazing Engine are cases in point; I'd  consider Shadowrun and Earthdawn two games that likewise sell primarily on setting.  Probably Palladium, going on common opinion. On the other extreme, for all the "Generic" systems (GURPS, of late Savage Worlds), the primarily sell is probably system because there is no setting; if the system is awful the prospective buyer will go play something else.

So question is:
a) can anyone thing of any games with both a great setting and a great system?

b) if not, why? Is it just that few people have the sort of skill set to create a setting that is compelling, and build really shining mechanics?

Or is there some sort of direct conflict between the two? (As shown, perhaps, with the 3E/4E D&D shift where all the fluff was nuked to allow for greater balance and etc.).

See, I personally believe that every setting needs it's own mechanics/physics engine to match up the physics/magic/combat/defining actions of the setting and the type of game the creator sees being played in it.  Both are equally important to creating the match you are talking about.  At the very least, this is the basal reason for houseruling.

The issue comes in when creative folk can write a good setting, and maybe even write clever mechanics, but do not understand these two things and how they synergize.  
So, no, I don't think that there is a conflict, just a lack of understanding of what is really involved in this very complicated undertaking.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;534894I once played in a Vampire scenario in which Fox Mulder appeared, and he was a Mage... not the greatest rpg experience ever.

It is common knowledge that the OWoD doesn't play nice.  Also it's common knowledge that Mages are the alpha splat in either edition. What they call tier 3, tier 4 for archmages, to use a HtV term that allows you to set the baseline power level and scope of the game.

@BT, the feel and assumption of the Blue Books is X-Files, Conspiracy X and similar.  You can easily add magic/psi via Second Sight or even using certain things out of HtV.

Quote from: Silverlion;534806Although I can think of some improvements to the Cinematic Unisystem, I've got Buffy, Angel, and the Classic Unisystem games Witchcraft.

They do work well, but I think its the neutrality of the system rather than optimal connection to the setting, they work well enough though.

I'd agree Cinematic Unisystem could be considered as suiting "cinematic" settings in general, not just the ones it has been used for.

As for AFMBE. Just like its little kid brother Terra Primate, it's a great game though IMHO both would have benefited from including the option of running them with Cinematic Unisystem as well, considering the spectrum of settings they're both covering.

I don't consider Classic Unisystem particularly setting-appropriate, though I guess it works well where something gritty but still relatively light and straight-forward is required. So yeah, it's rather neutral or what some people have perceived of/referred to as "bland".

Quote from: GrimGent;534892I suppose that would depend on your definition of "awesomeness". But criticizing the WoD core for the PCs' lack of magical powers is kind of like dismissing X-Files because Mulder isn't a wizard. That's just not what the basic concept was going for.

Even if that's the case, I still want some magic available for the PCs.

Quote from: B.T.;534991Even if that's the case, I still want some magic available for the PCs.

Easily accomplished just allow Second Sight in the game it's a blue line supplement that details non-dynamic magic and psi for base WoD games. There are other options such as Skinchangers, Ghouls and even Hunter the Vigil set at Tier 1 only, would be legitimate options also for a pure human game depending on the intended focus.

You could even use Witch Hunters from HtV for a more powerful magic option if desired.

Quote from: Marleycat;534908It is common knowledge that the OWoD doesn't play nice.

That's forum wisdom for you. I have not noticed all these issues in the ten years or so I played OWoD, to be honest. It stinks of the same brand of theoretical bullshitism that gave us the rants about the linear fighter and quadratic wizard, when these guys haven't actually played the old editions of the game by the book either.

But what do I know, right? These guys "obviously" know what they're talking about. :rolleyes:

Quote from: B.T.;534991Even if that's the case, I still want some magic available for the PCs.

Then don't play WoD without splat.

Quote from: B.T.;534855Shit system, shit setting: nWoD core.  Your characters don't even get magic!

Yeah, right. Call of Cthulhu is such a horrible game too, right? :rolleyes:

Quote from: Benoist;535020That's forum wisdom for you. I have not noticed all these issues in the ten years or so I played OWoD, to be honest. It stinks of the same brand of theoretical bullshitism that gave us the rants about the linear fighter and quadratic wizard, when these guys haven't actually played the old editions of the game by the book either.

But what do I know, right? These guys "obviously" know what they're talking about. :rolleyes:

It can be done I did it many times you just have to decide what your default is concerning some basic issues. Like which universe is primary, mage or not and so on. But regardless the OWoD isn't really meant for crossover.  NWoD is far better for it given it was designed from the ground up with that playstyle being a possible assumption.

A much better game for crossover that works with the same themes and genre would be Witchcraft among a couple of others.

It's similar to the LF/QW issue it can and does happen if you as the GM set or enforce any internal realism in your game or setting.

Quote from: Marleycat;535038It can be done I did it many times you just have to decide what your default is concerning some basic issues. Like which universe is primary, mage or not and so on. But regardless the OWoD isn't really meant for crossover.  NWoD is far better for it given it was designed from the ground up with that playstyle being a possible assumption.

So that's what you actually mean. I thought you meant something more along the lines of the OWoD system being "broken" or whatnot, which is total bullshit. Yeah, I agree that OWoD is less sympathetic to cross-overs between games. It was far from impossible mind you (we had all kinds of different supernatural creatures in my Paris by Night at the time), but there were risks of getting overboard with mage-garou-gypsies embaulmed as mummies playing at the table if you weren't careful. Also, mages were obviously more powerful than anything else only if you let them get way ahead in terms of Arete and Sphere points. It's actually extremely hard to get the XP to raise those traits as a Mage, compared to say, a Vampire, so in the long run the obvious superiority of one over the other doesn't quite work out the way you'd think in the chronicle. I've had quite a few mage PCs killed by Vampire PCs in my game.

Quote from: Marleycat;535015Easily accomplished just allow Second Sight in the game it's a blue line supplement that details non-dynamic magic and psi for base WoD games.

Right. The core is for playing more or less ordinary people who somehow find themselves up against unknown supernatural forces. Second Sight adds options for characters who in themselves have been touched by the supernatural, with minor templates such as psychics whose powers are purchased as Merits. The six magical traditions included in the book are "apostle of the dark one", "ceremonial magician", "hedge witch", "shaman", "taoist alchemist", and "vodoun".

Quote from: Benoist;535045So that's what you actually mean. I thought you meant something more along the lines of the OWoD system being "broken" or whatnot, which is total bullshit. Yeah, I agree that OWoD is less sympathetic to cross-overs between games. It was far from impossible mind you (we had all kinds of different supernatural creatures in my Paris by Night at the time), but there were risks of getting overboard with mage-garou-gypsies embaulmed as mummies playing at the table if you weren't careful. Also, mages were obviously more powerful than anything else only if you let them get way ahead in terms of Arete and Sphere points. It's actually extremely hard to get the XP to raise those traits as a Mage, compared to say, a Vampire, so in the long run the obvious superiority of one over the other doesn't quite work out the way you'd think in the chronicle. I've had quite a few mage PCs killed by Vampire PCs in my game.

Exactly, I really couldn't agree more.  

The LF/QW is really a spherical cow in my opinion.  It can and does happen but only if the GM neither sets or enforces any logic, realism, or consistency in their setting or game.