Quote from: Claudius;534088Yes. I would have liked MERP more if it had been a generic fantasy game.

That would pretty much be Rolemaster.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;534024Would you rather play 17th century swashbucklers using 2e AD&D and A Mighty Fortress, or Flashing Blades?

Well I probably should have explained what I meant because everyone seems to have misinterpreted it. Setting v. System is a false dichotomy, by which I mean, these are not opposites, or elements that should be opposed to each other artificially as though they were not overlapping in a role playing game. It's like the fallacy of "fluff" and "crunch" - it's an artificial opposition that does not reflect how these two elements work with each other.

Setting and system are part of the broad design of an RPG. These elements ideally blend into one another in a way that makes the whole stronger than the sum of its parts. The world is depicted by descriptions and elements of the rules that help support the emulation of that world. In that sense, setting and system are part of the same thing. Opposing them would be like asking "motor or wheels, which do you prefer to use with your car?"

So in my mind, a game where the rules and the world they are supposed to emulate conflict with each other is symptomatic of bad game design, an all-too-common exception, rather than the rule, or what's supposed to be the rule itself.

I'll take Flashing Blades over AD&D2 any time of the day, because Flashing Blades actually is a good game.

Quote from: Koltar;533954Any Setting will work with ANY System - as long as you have a Good and Creative GM.

It all goes back to the GM.

Probably, but it wouldn't necessarily be the same game you're playing. Using GURPS with Barbarians of Lemuria for example, would not result in the over-the-top heroic pulp fantasy BoL is intended to emulate. Which is fine, if that's what you're going for. I've played in a GURPS Star Wars game that was loads of fun, but I'm not sure it really emulated the kind of action we see in the movies very accurately.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;534184Probably, but it wouldn't necessarily be the same game you're playing. Using GURPS with Barbarians of Lemuria for example, would not result in the over-the-top heroic pulp fantasy BoL is intended to emulate. Which is fine, if that's what you're going for. I've played in a GURPS Star Wars game that was loads of fun, but I'm not sure it really emulated the kind of action we see in the movies very accurately.

This is very true. The system serves as the physics of the setting. You can't change the system without changing the setting in some way. I mean, you could run Over the Edge using Rolemaster, but the result would be very different from a standard Over the Edge game.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;534202I mean, you could run Over the Edge using Rolemaster, but the result would be very different from a standard Over the Edge game.

And, it would make baby-Jonathan Tweet cry.

Talislanta--while the setting has been pulled into various forms, the 4E set fit the world perfectly. Interestingly enough Hellas works to fit to its world and is a variation of Talislanta's System.


Of course where is the line drawn? I mean Marvel Superheroes had a great setting, and a great system--that hasn't stopped people from trying to come up with a game half as loved as the original MSH/Faserip system.

Superheroes in general nudge the "generic" border because they have to do so many different things within their framework--wizards, mutants, spaceships and so on. I think my own H&S game is the least "generic" supers game there is--since while it does those things, it does them by focusing on the heroism and motivation aspects of play--on doing what comic books do--rather than doing what a game does to mimic superpowers.

Quote from: Benoist;534130Well I probably should have explained what I meant because everyone seems to have misinterpreted it. Setting v. System is a false dichotomy, by which I mean, these are not opposites, or elements that should be opposed to each other artificially as though they were not overlapping in a role playing game. It's like the fallacy of "fluff" and "crunch" - it's an artificial opposition that does not reflect how these two elements work with each other.

Setting and system are part of the broad design of an RPG. These elements ideally blend into one another in a way that makes the whole stronger than the sum of its parts. The world is depicted by descriptions and elements of the rules that help support the emulation of that world. In that sense, setting and system are part of the same thing. Opposing them would be like asking "motor or wheels, which do you prefer to use with your car?"

This is what I think, Ben!

-clash

Quote from: Silverlion;534204Superheroes in general nudge the "generic" border because they have to do so many different things within their framework--wizards, mutants, spaceships and so on. I think my own H&S game is the least "generic" supers game there is--since while it does those things, it does them by focusing on the heroism and motivation aspects of play--on doing what comic books do--rather than doing what a game does to mimic superpowers.

I agree. H&S nails comic books perfectly. Which is why Klaxon is going in an entirely other direction for LUITS!. Why compete with perfection?

-clash

Well, I was seriously asking as part of the OP if there was some conflict between setting and system, but enough people have come up with games that are fairly strong for both, to prove that untrue.
 
We've had some good discussion in the thread though. Currently my thinking is at:
 
*there are definitely settings that are harder to design good systems for; superhero games for instance.
 
*for alot of the games where both system and setting were good, for alot of these the primary draw is still one or the other - usually the setting. Call of Cthulhu for instance I have to agree the basic system is quite solid, but that its also been converted to d20 and Gumshoe (and probably other things) shows that the setting is the main thing of interest.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;534202The system serves as the physics of the setting. You can't change the system without changing the setting in some way.

Yes. If I ever get to run Unhallowed Metropolis I plan to use Cinematic Unisystem, which in more than one way is almost the opposite of the game's own rules set, but that's exactly my intention.

There's also the case where a particular system just happens to be someone's favourite and therefore he uses it for everything. In that case he's probably not intentionally changing the "physics" of the setting, but just feels most comfortable with a different rules set and isn't terribly concerned with emulating a certain genre or style. The whole d20 debacle would be an example of taking this approach a bit too far.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;534202I mean, you could run Over the Edge using Rolemaster, but the result would be very different from a standard Over the Edge game.

Doing the opposite would be less cumbersome and masochistic.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;534203And, it would make baby-Jonathan Tweet cry.

Who the heck is Jonathan Tweet?

Amber is the best match System for Setting. Although I think the system can be improved and I think my house rules improve it.

The whole diceless mechanic is wonderfully libertating and the fact that the Auction character creation process deliberately creates tension between the PCs that later plays out in game is a wonderful way to get that core part of the setting across.

The Auction is in fact one of most stunning pieces of game design I have seen (even if it needs a bit more guidance than is given in the rule book).

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;534403Yes. If I ever get to run Unhallowed Metropolis I plan to use Cinematic Unisystem, which in more than one way is almost the opposite of the game's own rules set, but that's exactly my intention.

That would rock.

Unhallowed Metropolis has an even more depressing setting than Shadowrun. I didn't think that was possible.

I rate Pendragon as the best setting/system combo that I have ever seen.

The system was designed purely for roleplaying as knights in the Arthurian mythos and it seems to be the blueprint for getting system to match setting, done right.

Quote from: PaladinCA;534565Unhallowed Metropolis has an even more depressing setting than Shadowrun. I didn't think that was possible.

I take it you've never played Kult?