Quote from: RPGPunditIn its milder forms it really doesn't add up to actual "abuse" as such

Oh, this is going to end badly.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf your 4 year old asked to go fishing with you, and you know that they don't really get what they're asking and wouldn't be able to really get into it at that age, and that by taking them then, and seeing them end up bored with it, they'd never fish again, would it make you a "bad parent" to say "not till you're older"; and then make a big deal out of taking him along with you on the fishing trip when he's 9 and you feel he's ready and that taking him then will make him a life-long fisherman?

Funny you mention this.  Just this summer, I took my family to the Wisconsin Dells – a cheesy little vacation place about 3 hours from my house. My wife’s family has had a little house up there for 30 years. One of the little kitchy things near there is a trout fishing pond.

Now my kids have been begging me to take them fishing for over a year - that’s right, my son (now 5 about to turn 6) and daughter (now 4 about to turn 5) ask to go fishing. But I haven’t taken them.  Why? Partly because I haven’t had the right opportunity, but partly because I didn’t think they would handle the boredom well.

Guess what my 4 year old daughter begged to do in the Dells – fish. We did. It was the right opportunity – they didn’t get bored because it was a trout pond for crying out loud. They both caught two fish (it cost me more than I wanted, but hey). They begged every day after to go back. And then they started asking at home.  And I explained to them that when spring comes, we can try, but it will be very different. They have to be prepared to wait, to be patient. If they are willing to try, I am.

If I took your tack, I would miss out on a great experience with my kids.  My little one still talks about how she caught the biggest fish, when we can go back, etc. We had a blast. Would have missed it all.

BTW, I didn’t say anything about anyone being a bad parent if they decided not to play. That’s your deal. It’s got to be something you figure out as a parent, and what I am, and I think many others are, pushing back about is the blanket statement.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you indulge the kid's whims you're either doing it because its something YOU want whether or not its best for the kid, or because you're just willing to do what the kid wants, even if you know its not going to be best for them in the long run.

Hehehe….yeah…that it.  Just more proof that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.  Take my example of fishing.  I don’t particularly like fishing.  I mean, I’ve done it – went to Canada for a wekk and had a great time.  But I’ve never been drawn to it like I was gaming. You do it because you’re kids express an interest, it will fun for you all, and they can learn a little while they are doing it.  And if you think I indulge my kids’ every whim, perhaps I should give you my wife’s e-mail – she’ll get a good laugh out of that one. Man are you clueless on this one Pundit.

Quote from: RPGPunditFuck's sake, I'm not suggesting that you should have your kids taken away from you.  Its not like your rugrat is going to become an axe murderer because you roleplayed with him, or didn't.

I love how parents are able to play the histrionics card at will whenever anything has to do with kids, especially "their kids", and expect everyone else to back down and give them what they want because they are the "sacred breeders".

Sorry to burst your bubble you miserable vomitous mass, but you implied that I was a bad parent. Go back and read what you wrote. Wait – I’m talking to Pundit – like that’s going to happen. Parents get upset because, as someone here pointed out, kids are very different. So you have no idea about my kids, much less all kids. So your statements are insulting to say the least. It’s got nothing to do with being “sacred breeders.” It’s your suggestion/implication that you know better how to parent our kids when a) you don’t know them, and b) don’t have any kids of your own.

I listen to your discussion about gaming with interest because, you know, you game.

Quote from: RPGPunditYeah, well, there's the problem isn't it? Especially for a lot of geek parents, who may have had trouble socializing all their lives, having a little "buddy" who you have absolute authority over and who worships your every move and may in fact be the first person in your life to think you're incredibly cool is too big a temptation to pass up.

Actually, the first people in my life that thought I was cool were probably my friends. Just because you grew up as a geek and had trouble socializing doesn’t mean the rest of us did. You really do think this hobby is full of shitty people, don’t you?

Quote from: RPGPunditOf course, parents of all stripes do that sort of shit, either living vicariously through their kids (my sister is a great example of that, fuck is my poor niece going to end up horribly messed up by the time she's in her teens), or looking at their kids to entertain them or act as substitute friends.  In its milder forms it really doesn't add up to actual "abuse" as such, and probably won't fuck up the kid any moreso than the average human being is fucked up by his parents, but to then turn around and claim that you're a paragon of virtue who's sacrificed everything for your little angel is really annoyingly hypocritical.

Well, there you have it.  Mr. Edwards has revealed himself. Now role-playing with my kids isn’t “actual abuse.”

You just lost me Pundit.  You can’t admit you’re wrong so you resort to this.  I’ve always agree that there are people out to evangelize GNS and so forth. But those who say you are noting but another Mr. Edwards are more right than I thought.

If it’s so fucking annoying, put me on your IL, you hypocritical fuckface – or ban me.

Quote from: RPGPunditIn its milder forms it really doesn't add up to actual "abuse" as such...

...but when combined with D&D in any of its insidious forms it can also lead to actual brain damage!  Thank you Mr. Edwards.

!i!

[Edit:  Oh'p.  Beaten to the punch a couple of times over.]

A poem for you by Philip Larkin, Pundoolicks:

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
  They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
  And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
  By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
  And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
  It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
  And don't have any kids yourself.

Quote from: SilverlionI don't play with my kids (not having any helps ). I play with my nephew and niece, their parents play but not "with" them to my knowledge.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38567

My experience of gaming with kids was at a party a couple of years ago where the adults were being adults and talking about the politics of East Timor and Australia's involvement in the war in Iraq. The kids (four of them, aged around 12, 10, 9 and were being bored and getting a little on edge.

The oldest boy (the c10 year old) came up to me and proudly announced quite out of the blue; "Before Dungeons and Dragons was a computer game it was a book!".

It just so happened I had a tattered copy of RuneQuest in my bag, which (like summoning something out of the ether) I confirmed his assertion. Within seconds we were generating a character - real simple and impromtu rules mind, but certainly sufficient to generate the interest of the others who now milled around excited with what was going on (much to the relief to everyone else at the gathering).

The twelve year old girl of course wanted to be a princess. The oldest boy a knight in shining armour (of course). The two other boys decided to a troll and the youngest (and least attentive) a sailor. I quickly set the scene of a port town on the east coast of Scotland (complete with bad accents) which was suffering a food shortage due to a shortage of fish.

We went outside and carried out the activities in something that was almost LARPish; being too young to sit still and probably full of red cordial they played partially in the style of table-top RPGs and partially as charades.

They visited some were-rats at the docks who informed them that the cause of their problem was a sea-drake from Norway. After collection the necessary provisions and requisitioning a boat, they travelled over the North Sea and encountered a foul storm. The boy playing the troll decided that that troll wasn't so smart and starting tipping water in the boat. The girl was going to work on the boat and I reminded her that she was a princess. With a flash of realisation she said "No, I wouldn't work, would I? I'm a princess!" and promptly started to order the troll and sailor around. As the game continued she also suggested that the activity could be performed as a stage show for the rest of the people at the party.

However the evening was late and parents came to collect the li'll ones. With muted cries of protest, they took their character sheets home, chattering with excitement of the game they had just played. The oldest boy wanted a copy of the game for Christmas (I mentioned a couple of hobby shops). The girl pleaded with her mother to take me on as as her child-minder!

I have no doubt whatsover that they still have their character sheets tucked away, that they still read them fondly and wonder about how the numbers next their characteristics and skills all work. I have no doubt that they remember fondly the evening when someone rescued them from a boring party, paid attention to them and provided the means for them to create their own story. I have no doubt that when the opportunity arises, they'll all take up RPGs.

And that, brothers and sisters, is how you get kids into roleplaying games.

Quote from: SettembriniClearly, most people will mention special kid´s sessions. Which is like playing  footbal on a smaller field, or with a plastic ball. But eight year olds should play football mostly with other kids, don´t you think?

As a special occasion, I can see where gaming with kids can be nice. But I can´t see any good way of regular gaming with them.

EDIT: Some parts of the pathetic stuff that happens when kids are taken as a substitute for the parents friends can be experienced by reading Wil Wheaton´s antics.

Eh?  I don't play football regularly with my kid because it's not terribly interesting for either of us.  We're not evenly matched so it's not an engaging activity.  

However, there are plenty of regular family activities which parents and kids do together.  These include things like skiing, skating, and fishing -- but also boardgames, movie watching, and so forth.  I have no idea what Wil Wheaton does, but I don't feel that spending time doing fun things with your kids is pathetic.

Sorry, I haven't been online all day, so I've got a lot to reply to.

QuoteOh don't get me wrong; I realize what it would really take to be a good parent,

No, you don't realize it. Your opinions given here show that.

QuoteThe fact is, however, that I think most people who ARE parents did not really consider this, nor do they rise up to the task when they actually achieve parenthood.

I agree, but it has no bearing on the discussion at hand other than as a backhanded insult.

Quotethey don't actually need RPGs to do that sort of thing,

Who said they did? Everyone here who has mentioned gaming with kids has mentioned their kid asking. So it's not a matter of someone thinking they need it, but of someone thinking they want it. Whether it's too structured is debatable. My kid's only 5 but he loves moving across the board and rolling his dice.

QuoteI think its a game that is better for them to be playing with their peers, for themselves, than with adults.

Other than your idea of it being better for the hobby do you have a reason for this? do you have any personal experience of parents gaming with their children to support those ideas? (And no, you and your brother or nephews doesn't count, unless you're from Arkansas and they're also your kids).

QuoteBut eight year olds should play football mostly with other kids, don´t you think?

I think 8 year olds should play football with their friends and also their parents (albeit a bastardized version that doesn't require bone crunching tackles). Whether it's at the same time would depend on if there were other parents playing too.

I also think that roleplaying games are not football.

QuoteSome parts of the pathetic stuff that happens when kids are taken as a substitute for the parents friends can be experienced by reading Wil Wheaton´s antics.

Is this another stealth insult? Or does it have some bearing on the discussion, since nobody here has said anything about using kids as surrogate friends.

QuoteIf your 4 year old asked to go fishing with you, and you know that they don't really get what they're asking and wouldn't be able to really get into it at that age, and that by taking them then, and seeing them end up bored with it, they'd never fish again, would it make you a "bad parent" to say "not till you're older"; and then make a big deal out of taking him along with you on the fishing trip when he's 9 and you feel he's ready and that taking him then will make him a life-long fisherman?

No it wouldn't. But I don't have any pretentious definition of what roleplaying is. I know it's just a glorified kid's game, and as such I know my kid can understand it. By your definition I'm a bad parent because I understand my child and give him the things he can handle.

QuoteIf you indulge the kid's whims you're either doing it because its something YOU want whether or not its best for the kid, or because you're just willing to do what the kid wants, even if you know its not going to be best for them in the long run.

It's at "not the best for them in the long run" where your position falls apart. That is, unless you can prove that my child both a) will pick up RPGs later and b) that's what would be best for him.

QuoteYeah, well, there's the problem isn't it? Especially for a lot of geek parents, who may have had trouble socializing all their lives, having a little "buddy" who you have absolute authority over and who worships your every move and may in fact be the first person in your life to think you're incredibly cool is too big a temptation to pass up. Of course, parents of all stripes do that sort of shit, either living vicariously through their kids (my sister is a great example of that, fuck is my poor niece going to end up horribly messed up by the time she's in her teens), or looking at their kids to entertain them or act as substitute friends. In its milder forms it really doesn't add up to actual "abuse" as such, and probably won't fuck up the kid any moreso than the average human being is fucked up by his parents, but to then turn around and claim that you're a paragon of virtue who's sacrificed everything for your little angel is really annoyingly hypocritical.

Again, so what? That's not what's being discussed here, and nobody but you and Settembrini have even insinuated that it is.

QuotePundit: The parents are the ones who are playing the histrionics card? "Fucks sake, I'm not suggesting that you should have your kids taken away from you," doesn't exactly sound like level, reasoned discourse to me. Did somebody say that you were making that suggestion? Or are you just flying off the handle because you're emotional and defensive on the subject?

QFT :lol:

QuoteThe oldest boy (the c10 year old) came up to me and proudly announced quite out of the blue; "Before Dungeons and Dragons was a computer game it was a book!".

God that makes me feel old!

4 points:

1) It's just a game.  If you'd play other games with your family, D&D shouldn't be any different...

However

2) Moldvay D&D included this text on the cover:
The Original Fantasy Role Playing Game
For 3 or More Adults,
Ages 10 and Up
Make sure you're doing age-appropriate activities with your kids.  D&D isn't a good activity for 6 year olds.

3) Kids have shorter attention spans -- based on the Game Session Length thread, most players prefer sessions that are inappropriately long for kids.

4) I met a guy once who was grilling his poor kid on which breath weapon the different colours of dragons have.  He was very displeased when the kid (6 or 7 years old) made mistakes.  Don't be that guy.

My god, is this really necessary?  You guys sound like Forgery guys saying that how to role-play needs to be written into the rules.

If you think role-playing with your kids, even using D&D, has to be the 10 and up version, and that saying you're going to do so means you'll be drilling your kids on dragon colors...

Do you guys really think most parents are like that?

Nevermind...I'm now officially scared of your answer...

Quote from: Stuart4 points:

1) It's just a game.  If you'd play other games with your family, D&D shouldn't be any different...

True.

Quote2) Moldvay D&D included this text on the cover:
The Original Fantasy Role Playing Game
For 3 or More Adults,
Ages 10 and Up
Make sure you're doing age-appropriate activities with your kids.  D&D isn't a good activity for 6 year olds.

Possibly. Depends on the 6 year old. But if full blown basic D&D is too much for your six year old, there's nothing stopping you from stripping stuff out and/or changing things around so that it is more appropriate for him.

Quote3) Kids have shorter attention spans -- based on the Game Session Length thread, most players prefer sessions that are inappropriately long for kids.

True. The longest me and my son have played is a couple of hours. Usually it's less than that. For instance we just wrapped up a 20 minute game. It would have been longer but bedtime reared its ugly head.

Quote4) I met a guy once who was grilling his poor kid on which breath weapon the different colours of dragons have.  He was very displeased when the kid (6 or 7 years old) made mistakes.  Don't be that guy.

Agreed. And if you see that guy, slap him when the kid's not around. you can slap him while the kid's there but since there's probably precious little respect left in the relationship, seeing the dad bitch slapped might erode it all away and scar the poor kid for life.

@James J Skach: Don't read into it more than what's there.  Point #1 was -- it's a game, and families play games together.

@James McMurray: For better or worse, that guy and his wife got a divorce.

GODDAMMIT!!!:yell: :yell: :yell:
The tittle of the thread says RPG's for kids, so I wan't to hear about some fucking rpg's for kids, I don't care how you raise your children, as Im sure you don't care how I raise mine.
So now please could anyone please recommend me some good rpg's for kids around the age of 5? In my case I got a daughter so I guess a game that resembles Club Winx would be better than Marvel superheroes.

Quote from: UmaSamaSo now please could anyone please recommend me some good rpg's for kids around the age of 5? In my case I got a daughter so I guess a game that resembles Club Winx would be better than Marvel superheroes.

Club Winx bears more than a passing resemblance to Sailor Moon, and the Tri-Stat system is pretty simple, so maybe the GoO Sailor Moon game?

Actually, you know what game I found always worked a treat for pretty much any TV show or movie?  Ghostbusters.  If you can't find a copy of that, try Risus, which is dead simple and highly flexible (and strongly inspired by Ghostbusters).

My kids are complete goons for Avatar: the Last Airbender right now, so I'm probably going to use a stripped-down version of HeroQuest, which can handle the crazy, improvised martial arts/magics of the various Benders without breaking the system.

!i!

Quote from: UmaSamaGODDAMMIT!!!:yell: :yell: :yell:
The tittle of the thread says RPG's for kids, so I wan't to hear about some fucking rpg's for kids, I don't care how you raise your children, as Im sure you don't care how I raise mine.
So now please could anyone please recommend me some good rpg's for kids around the age of 5? In my case I got a daughter so I guess a game that resembles Club Winx would be better than Marvel superheroes.

Here's my RPGs for Kids Page

My thoughts for a 5-year-old: there's Faery's Tale, Cat, and Secret Lives of Gingerbread Men.  My six-year-old played Faery's Tale reasonably well, but it is a little tricky.  I haven't tried SLoGM, but it seems like a good bet.