Quote from: RPGPunditYeah, see, not to belabor the point, but to get a History degree you need 4, 6, or 8 years (or more, if you're slow) of training and qualifications.

The point being that you have to actually go to school to get the degree, right?

QuoteThe only "qualifications" you need to be a parent are to have viable sperm and a viable egg to seed it with. A half-hour, a couch, and a couple of bottles of beer usually do the trick.

Your analogy is falling apart.  What you just described is the equivalent of filling out the application and submitting the application fee.  You haven't even begun to pay tuition, much less attend a lecture.  We'll revisit this analogy after you've finished your first mid-terms.

!i!

Quote from: TonyLBDo you have some reason for dismissing that experience?

Virtually all nonparents think they can figure out what it's like being a parent from the outside. This is good for the species, becuase if a lot of us knew what we were in for a ahead of time, we would have ourselves sterilized.
I had friends that told me I had no idea, but a I laughed it off, or figured I could extrapolate from my experience as a pet owner (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA). There is no convincing nonparents that they are in the dark. They are like eight year olds who think that health class has taught them all about sex. There is almost no point to even trying. beside that- the Pundit is never wrong.

Quote from: TonyLBThat's a massive failure of parallelism.  The conception is the beginning of learning to be a parent.  Just as with the physics student, the actual learning comes from constant interaction with and study of the basics of the subject ... in this case, small children.

Am I supposed to compare my physics knowledge against a freshman who just today enrolled in the physics major?  Seems to me that he doesn't know a whole lot more than me.  I guess a degree really doesn't mean anything!   Of course, if I compare to the guy who's studied the subject for four years I'll probably find that he knows his subject a helluva lot better than I do.

Likewise:  If you want to compare your knowledge against a parent on the day they take their child home from the hospital, that's one comparison.  Not a useful one, but it's a comparison.  But the comparison that's relevant here is with peole who have years of intensive (often approaching far too closely to 24 hours a day, 365 days a year) exposure to children, and a vested interest in studying them and figuring out how they tick.

Do you have some reason for dismissing that experience?

I have no opinion on whether or not it's a good idea to teach children roleplaying games, but doing something doesn't mean you're good at it.  What's the parental equivalent of a diploma?  Not accidentally killing your child or having him taken away by social services before he turns 18?  The nation is filled with bad parents who think they're good parents.

Quote from: hgjsThe nation is filled with bad parents who think they're good parents.

And lots of high school graduates who can neither read nor make simple change.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditIt doesn't mean that I don't think you'd be better serving the kid by playing a kid's game with him now, and making D&D a rite of passage for him when he's older.

Take an honest look at your hobby, without the pomposity and superiority complex. It's make believe with more props and less freedom. It is a kid's game.

Quote from: AosVirtually all nonparents think they can figure out what it's like being a parent from the outside. This is good for the species, becuase if a lot of us knew what we were in for a ahead of time, we would have ourselves sterilized.
I had friends that told me I had no idea, but a I laughed it off, or figured I could extrapolate from my experience as a pet owner (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA). There is no convincing nonparents that they are in the dark. They are like eight year olds who think that health class has taught them all about sex. There is almost no point to even trying. beside that- the Pundit is never wrong.

Oh don't get me wrong; I realize what it would really take to be a good parent, which is why I have chosen not to be one.

The fact is, however, that I think most people who ARE parents did not really consider this, nor do they rise up to the task when they actually achieve parenthood.

RPGPundit

Quote from: James McMurrayTake an honest look at your hobby, without the pomposity and superiority complex. It's make believe with more props and less freedom. It is a kid's game.

I've always been a HUGE advocate of kids (by kids in this case meaning 12-18 year olds) playing RPGs, and that more of this has to be done.

Younger kids? They play with action figures, or cowboys & indians or whatever; they don't actually need RPGs to do that sort of thing, and its probably too structured for them.

And in either case, whether you're talking little kids or teens, I think its a game that is better for them to be playing with their peers, for themselves, than with adults.

I'm all for parents everywhere getting their kids D&D basic sets when they're ready for it!
And then, letting them play with it, for themselves.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditOh don't get me wrong; I realize what it would really take to be a good parent, which is why I have chosen not to be one.

Actually, as Aos pointed out, until you have kids, you have no idea.  Neither did I.  Nobody does - not even the vaunted child psychologist like folks. It's like saying you know how to really fight a dragon because, you know, you played D&D.

Fact is, if you thought that if your kid came to you and wanted to "play D&D" and you wouldn't (assuming you are not on your way out the door to work) because of some greater good for the hobby, you're wrong, you have no idea what it takes to be a good parent.

Everything in moderation, dear Pundit.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe fact is, however, that I think most people who ARE parents did not really consider this, nor do they rise up to the task when they actually achieve parenthood.

We waited 10 years to have kids. We considered it alot. Wanted to make sure its what we really wanted and we were prepared. It's like war - all the plans go out the window after the first day home.

Ahhh...so what you're really doing is calling into question the parenting skills of those of us who are not willing to take your advice for the "good of the hobby" and stop role-playing with out kids. Tell you what - you raise your kids your way, and I'll raise mine.  Deal? For a guy against the Nanny state, you sure go a long way not to admit your wrong for trying to be a Nanny to my kids.

And thanks to all of you who took apart his school analogy as I was away doing work.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAnd lots of high school graduates who can neither read nor make simple change.

Is this supposed to support the idea that doing something means you are good at it?  'Cause it seems like that's the opposite of what you're saying.

If you don't have a point other than taking a shot at high schools, more power to you.

QuoteAhhh...so what you're really doing is calling into question the parenting skills of those of us who are not willing to take your advice for the "good of the hobby" and stop role-playing with out kids.

Well, it's also that the Pundaloni generalises from his particular experience. Most people who have children have also spent considerable time around other people's children, and realise that children are as different as adults.

Being a parent doesnt give you any authority over anything, except over your children.
You do not become skilled in being that authority by virtue of becoming this authority.

I would also say, that an eight year old will never be able to be a full participant in a real session of mine. So to play with the grown ups, you have to grow up. If you let your eight year old play with your regular  group, then something is amiss, I daresay.

Clearly, most people will mention special kid´s sessions. Which is like playing  footbal on a smaller field, or with a plastic ball. But eight year olds should play football mostly with other kids, don´t you think?

As a special occasion, I can see where gaming with kids can be nice. But I can´t see any good way of regular gaming with them.

EDIT: Some parts of the pathetic stuff that happens when kids are taken as a substitute for the parents friends can be experienced by reading Wil Wheaton´s antics.

Quote from: James J SkachActually, as Aos pointed out, until you have kids, you have no idea.  Neither did I.  Nobody does - not even the vaunted child psychologist like folks. It's like saying you know how to really fight a dragon because, you know, you played D&D.

Fact is, if you thought that if your kid came to you and wanted to "play D&D" and you wouldn't (assuming you are not on your way out the door to work) because of some greater good for the hobby, you're wrong, you have no idea what it takes to be a good parent.

Everything in moderation, dear Pundit.

If your 4 year old asked to go fishing with you, and you know that they don't really get what they're asking and wouldn't be able to really get into it at that age, and that by taking them then, and seeing them end up bored with it, they'd never fish again, would it make you a "bad parent" to say "not till you're older"; and then make a big deal out of taking him along with you on the fishing trip when he's 9 and you feel he's ready and that taking him then will make him a life-long fisherman?

If you indulge the kid's whims you're either doing it because its something YOU want whether or not its best for the kid, or because you're just willing to do what the kid wants, even if you know its not going to be best for them in the long run.

QuoteWe waited 10 years to have kids. We considered it alot. Wanted to make sure its what we really wanted and we were prepared. It's like war - all the plans go out the window after the first day home.

Ahhh...so what you're really doing is calling into question the parenting skills of those of us who are not willing to take your advice for the "good of the hobby" and stop role-playing with out kids. Tell you what - you raise your kids your way, and I'll raise mine.  Deal? For a guy against the Nanny state, you sure go a long way not to admit your wrong for trying to be a Nanny to my kids.

Fuck's sake, I'm not suggesting that you should have your kids taken away from you.  Its not like your rugrat is going to become an axe murderer because you roleplayed with him, or didn't.

I love how parents are able to play the histrionics card at will whenever anything has to do with kids, especially "their kids", and expect everyone else to back down and give them what they want because they are the "sacred breeders".

RPGPundit

Quote from: SettembriniAs a special occasion, I can see where gaming with kids can be nice. But I can´t see any good way of regular gaming with them.

EDIT: Some parts of the pathetic stuff that happens when kids are taken as a substitute for the parents friends can be experienced by reading Wil Wheaton´s antics.

Yeah, well, there's the problem isn't it? Especially for a lot of geek parents, who may have had trouble socializing all their lives, having a little "buddy" who you have absolute authority over and who worships your every move and may in fact be the first person in your life to think you're incredibly cool is too big a temptation to pass up. Of course, parents of all stripes do that sort of shit, either living vicariously through their kids (my sister is a great example of that, fuck is my poor niece going to end up horribly messed up by the time she's in her teens), or looking at their kids to entertain them or act as substitute friends.  In its milder forms it really doesn't add up to actual "abuse" as such, and probably won't fuck up the kid any moreso than the average human being is fucked up by his parents, but to then turn around and claim that you're a paragon of virtue who's sacrificed everything for your little angel is really annoyingly hypocritical.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SettembriniBeing a parent doesnt give you any authority over anything, except over your children.

Authority over? I never claimed to have such.  Though I do agree I have authority over my kids, including deciding when/where/what/how I will or will not partake in certain activities.

Quote from: SettembriniYou do not become skilled in being that authority by virtue of becoming this authority.

No, you become experienced at being a parent by...being a parent.  That experience informs your opinion – more than someone who does not have those experiences.  How many times my wife and I think about how we thought about other peoples' kids before we had to deal with the situation.  Walk a mile in my shoes, brother.

None of that is to say you or Pundit or anyone else without kids can't have an opinion on kids. But you should inform your opinion by listening to the people who have experience.

Quote from: SettembriniI would also say, that an eight year old will never be able to be a full participant in a real session of mine. So to play with the grown ups, you have to grow up. If you let your eight year old play with your regular  group, then something is amiss, I daresay.

Did I say anything about a normal adult group? I don't think anyone did. I would think your game sucked for adults if an eight year old could play in it.

Quote from: SettembriniClearly, most people will mention special kid´s sessions. Which is like playing  footbal on a smaller field, or with a plastic ball. But eight year olds should play football mostly with other kids, don´t you think?

Sure – but if they ask to play with you – as their parent, in the backyard – are you going to refuse so he doesn't come to see it as "uncool." You are assuming that I would play D&D with my kid and keep him from playing with his. Stupid Assumption"

Quote from: SettembriniAs a special occasion, I can see where gaming with kids can be nice. But I can´t see any good way of regular gaming with them.

Good for you. It's a nice opinion.  I haven't considered whether or not to play with my kids on a regular basis.  The closest we come is the green army man wargame we play – when they ask (which they do all the time cause the LOVE it).

Quote from: SettembriniEDIT: Some parts of the pathetic stuff that happens when kids are taken as a substitute for the parents friends can be experienced by reading Wil Wheaton´s antics.

And herein lies the problem.  You jump to the conclusion that this is the case.  I have my own friends, and my kids have theirs. Why do you assume this is the case? You and Pundit have some pretty weird perceptions about people, ya know that?

Quote from: RPGPunditIf your 4 year old asked to go fishing with you, and you know that they don't really get what they're asking and wouldn't be able to really get into it at that age, and that by taking them then, and seeing them end up bored with it, they'd never fish again, would it make you a "bad parent" to say "not till you're older";

But ... you don't know that.  That's precisely the point people have been making.  You're trying to assume your conclusion now, which is both cheap and obvious.

Quote from: RPGPunditFuck's sake, I'm not suggesting that you should have your kids taken away from you.  Its not like your rugrat is going to become an axe murderer because you roleplayed with him, or didn't.

I love how parents are able to play the histrionics card at will whenever anything has to do with kids, especially "their kids", and expect everyone else to back down and give them what they want because they are the "sacred breeders".

Pundit:  The parents are the ones who are playing the histrionics card?  "Fucks sake, I'm not suggesting that you should have your kids taken away from you," doesn't exactly sound like level, reasoned discourse to me.  Did somebody say that you were making that suggestion?  Or are you just flying off the handle because you're emotional and defensive on the subject?  

If anyone has made the jump from "questioning parenting skills" to "an intolerable accusation" in this thread it's been you.  You've consistently painted people's questions about your position as emotional over-reaction rather than a rational response.

In point of fact, it's perfectly reasonable for people to point out that you don't know the first thing about the subject you're pontificating on.  Nobody has to be offended or upset.  They just have to believe that you're talking out of your hat.