Why does your success at introducing your brother to gaming later in life have any bearing on the notion of introducing kids earlier?

I mean ... I understand that you have a strong intuition that if you'd tried to introduce him to roleplaying younger it wouldn't have worked.  But the simple fact is, you didn't try.  You don't know what would have happened, and neither do we.

Well, we know what DID work.

As for whether all you guys RPing with your 8 year olds will work or not, we shall see, won't we?

RPGPundit

Wow, Pundit.  I'm stunned at your amazing ability to extrapolate your one experience with your younger brother (a completely different relationship than parent child) to an all-inclusive theory on why parents shouldn't play RPGs with their kids.

Should I not let my son try baseball until he's 16? What about when he says he wants me to coach his team, should I refuse? Should I tell my daughter no when she asks to sign up for gymnastics next session, or cheerleading?

Come to think of it, if I want them to think reading is cool, I should tell them they can't do it, instead of showing them how much I love it and how much fun they can have once they learn to read - how many worlds it will open up to them.

And yeah, I'm doing all of that for me. And that's honest - because being a parent is selfish as all hell.  When my kids are teaching their kids to game, and they explain how "grandpa showed me how to do this when I was a kid," your kids will be...oh yeah..you don't have any kids.

Dumbfuck.  Just admit your wrong so we can at least respect you for admitting it.

My experience is almost the exact opposite RPGPundit.  My cousin (age 17) was forced to let my brother (age 9) and I (age 7) play 1st ed. AD&D with him and his friends.  Between the two of us we acquired Basic D&D and Star Frontiers and DM'd back and forth while still playing the irregular game with our cousin.  It might be that my brother and I encouraged each other but our interest only increased over the years.

Quote from: James J SkachShould I not let my son try baseball until he's 16? What about when he says he wants me to coach his team, should I refuse? Should I tell my daughter no when she asks to sign up for gymnastics next session, or cheerleading?

No, but first of all, these things are all far more socially acceptable than gaming.
Second, most kids will stop doing most of these things in any serious way when they're teenagers too.
And third, when a parent does these things with his kid; its usually not literally WITH them (other than maybe "throwing the ball around"). Its usually the kid, wanting to try out for little league or go to the gymnastics classes, and the parent supporting that.

This is more like having a parent who's a minor league baseball player showing his kid the "wonders" of baseball. Even supposing there isn't overt or even subtle coercion on the parent's part, its something that the kid will likely be doing because he's a kid, and you're his dad/big brother/mom/whatever that he admires at that age, and that he/she will later feel embarrassed about when he or she hits the age that everything you do embarrasses him/her.

QuoteCome to think of it, if I want them to think reading is cool, I should tell them they can't do it, instead of showing them how much I love it and how much fun they can have once they learn to read - how many worlds it will open up to them.

You'll note, I actively encouraged my brother to borrow/read any of my gamebooks, and to start running his own games.  That's about the same as what you're saying above.  Actually playing with him is more like you reading to your kid in bed; at 8 years of age the kid might love it, but by the time he's 14 it will definitely be something he won't want.

QuoteAnd yeah, I'm doing all of that for me. And that's honest - because being a parent is selfish as all hell.  When my kids are teaching their kids to game, and they explain how "grandpa showed me how to do this when I was a kid," your kids will be...oh yeah..you don't have any kids.

Yeah, but crazy as it may seem now, I was one once. I also had three younger siblings, and a good deal of nieces, nephews, younger cousins and friend's kids.
Parents don't have the monopoly on knowing about kids, its not the fucking mystery parents love to try to make it out to be in their lording it over the childless.

RPGPundit

Quote from: GunslingerMy experience is almost the exact opposite RPGPundit.  My cousin (age 17) was forced to let my brother (age 9) and I (age 7) play 1st ed. AD&D with him and his friends.  Between the two of us we acquired Basic D&D and Star Frontiers and DM'd back and forth while still playing the irregular game with our cousin.  It might be that my brother and I encouraged each other but our interest only increased over the years.

Well, that's lucky for you, and for gaming.

Obviously, what I'm saying won't be universal.  Of course there won't be a 100% rate of gamers' kids rejecting gaming, some of them will take it up for life.  But I'm willing to bet that the majority of those who have it thrust upon them at an early age will end up rejecting it in adolescence.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditNote that I'm not so much suggesting that you should avoid roleplaying with your kids just because as I am suggesting that you should try to make it some kind of a "rite of passage"; something they'll associate with "being old enough" so that they'll feel more drawn to gaming when they're older.

Why should I try to play mind games on my kids based on your suggestions. Other than a brother, what experience do you have? What studies have you done? What child psychology courses have you taken?

QuoteAnyways, I doubt I'll get far in this argument; parents utterly despise the suggestion that they're ever doing anything wrong in the raising of their precious little darlings, even something as insignificant as this.

Yeah, because obviously it couldn't be you that's wrong, it has to be the parents that don't know how to interact with their children.

Also, you're coming at this from the perspective of a paranoid loon who thinks he needs to save the hobby. To you if a child stops roleplaying it's a victory for the evil bastards out to destroy us all.

QuoteAnd hey, maybe when it comes down to it its not "wrong" per se, as one of you said, what matters to YOU is that you're having fun with your kid NOW, but that kind of proves my point that you're doing it more for your sake than for theirs,

Utter bullshit. It "proves your point" if you're already convinced you know what's right, and if you think that for some reason when I say "I'm having fun with my kid" I'm not also doing it for him. Step outside of your either-or world and look around at the real one every now and then. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Quoteeven if its at the cost that later it'll be one of the many things they will end up avoiding on purpose to distance themselves from you.

So what? I'm not trying to win some cockamaimee war. Nor do I fear for the future of roleplaying. Nor do I think roleplaying is some sort of Mecca for enjoyment.

If my son decides when he's 14 (or even when he's 5) that he never wants to roleplay again, I'm fine with that. I personally can't stand most sports, but if that's the route he takes for his happiness, I'll be happy with that as well. And if you had even the slightest idea about what the parent-child relationship means you'd not only understand you'd support it.

I'm sorry, but having siblings in no way prepares you for telling people how to raise their kids. Try again.

Quote from: RPGPundit...I'm willing to bet...

Being willing to bet doesn't mean that you're not willing to lose.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditThis is more like having a parent who's a minor league baseball player showing his kid the "wonders" of baseball. Even supposing there isn't overt or even subtle coercion on the parent's part, its something that the kid will likely be doing because he's a kid, and you're his dad/big brother/mom/whatever that he admires at that age, and that he/she will later feel embarrassed about when he or she hits the age that everything you do embarrasses him/her.

Hey, Pundit ... I think it's only you who turns every relationship into a game of dominance and "who's forcing what on whom."

Some people, even some parents (shocking, I know, but try to contain yourself) can have a relationship with a child without bullying them.

If you don't have that in you, then fine:  You're absolutely right that you should not try to introduce kids to RPGs, or anything else.  But your personal failings are not universal truth.

My father loves to canoe and to camp:  the silence of being out on the water before the day begins, the call of a loon, the steady feeling of your muscles pulling you into the wilderness.  He offered to take me out with him, and because I wanted to, we went.  And when I became a teenager I kept going out with him, because I'm not an idiot, and I wasn't going to throw away something I'd learned to love just because I'd learned it from my dad.  And as an adult I go on such trips on my own initiative, though with young kids now I can't do it as much as I'd like.  I look forward to the day when they're old enough that I can offer that, if they want, we can go together.

As parents we offer our children experiences, and yes we're going to offer the things we love, but the kids are going to take up the things they love.  The most we can ever do is show them what there is to love, if they want to, in our favorites.  And that's obvious.  Children aren't clay.  Every single one is a small human, quirky and wilfull and full of distinct personality.  That's the only "secret" there is to parenting:  the inevitable realization that you don't create the child, either through action or inaction ... the most you can do is to succeed or fail at giving them the resources to create themselves.

If parents act like that's some big mystery, it's because some non-parents are absolutely rock-headed at being unable or unwilling to realize it.  You think I have the power, by playing RPGs, to convince my son not to like them?  I think you're daft.  He'll decide for himself.  All I can do is give him the opportunity to learn to love them, if that's what he chooses.  I think there's a lot to love in our hobby.  Why would I hide that from anyone, let alone those closest to me?

Quote from: RPGPunditNo, but first of all, these things are all far more socially acceptable than gaming.

Really?  Nice support of the hobby you dumb bastard.  How are we going to get people over that stigma if we play into it with our own kids. Besides, I think with this next generation, that's not the case. The intro of card games into the stream gets them comfortable with the ideas much sooner.

Quote from: RPGPunditSecond, most kids will stop doing most of these things in any serious way when they're teenagers too.

Oh, you mean like how I played baseball until I was 15 or 16, only to stop because I wasn't good enough to keep up with the better players.  And how I played softball all the time in college. Or how I played football until I was 18 and blew my knee out - and wish to this day I had taken the scholarship anyway. And how most of the people I know from HS and College with whom I still keep in touch still play sports when they can, or wish they could. What kind of stupidity are you willing to hide behind to not admit you are wrong?

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd third, when a parent does these things with his kid; its usually not literally WITH them (other than maybe "throwing the ball around"). Its usually the kid, wanting to try out for little league or go to the gymnastics classes, and the parent supporting that.

Yeah, because, you know, throwing the ball around is meaningless.  Or when he asks to practice swinging so I pitch to him. Or when he says he wants me to coach cause he loves to be with me when he plays.  Or when my daughter wants me to help her tumbling, do handstands with her. Yeah, you're right, we don't do it with them.  My god, man, let it go, you're wrong.

Quote from: RPGPunditThis is more like having a parent who's a minor league baseball player showing his kid the "wonders" of baseball. Even supposing there isn't overt or even subtle coercion on the parent's part, its something that the kid will likely be doing because he's a kid, and you're his dad/big brother/mom/whatever that he admires at that age, and that he/she will later feel embarrassed about when he or she hits the age that everything you do embarrasses him/her.

OK, so I'm in software.  I shouldn't show my son the wonders of writing software cause, you know, they're all nerds and socially unacceptable - unlike MBA's - and he'll just rebel against writing software.  My god, if all parents don't stop, we'll run out of software engineeers! Fucking idiot.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou'll note, I actively encouraged my brother to borrow/read any of my gamebooks, and to start running his own games.  That's about the same as what you're saying above.  Actually playing with him is more like you reading to your kid in bed; at 8 years of age the kid might love it, but by the time he's 14 it will definitely be something he won't want.

But he'll still want to read.  Do you think this is about my son gaming at 14 or 15 with me? By your own definition of the problem, it's not about that, it's about getting them into the hobby. You can't even keep your arguments straight. You fucking numbnuts. As Tony pointed out, all we can do is expose them to ideas and such.  Some we know better because we do them/love them and can participate in with them.  Others are a lesson for all of us.  But after that, they'll do what they love, and I'll support them then

QuoteRPGPundit]Yeah, but crazy as it may seem now, I was one once. I also had three younger siblings, and a good deal of nieces, nephews, younger cousins and friend's kids.
Parents don't have the monopoly on knowing about kids, its not the fucking mystery parents love to try to make it out to be in their lording it over the childless.

It's not a mystery.  But I've been on both sides, I know the differences between life with kids, and life without them.  I've got an experience you don't have.  I'm not lording it over you, anymore than pointing out that you have a phd in religion or history or whatever (not a shot, I honestly don't remember as I write this) is lording it over me.

You show me the study that says if I introduce RPG's to my kids and they will not play them as adults and I'll...still tell you to go fuck yourself.  Because it's about me having fun with my son and daughter - whether that's D&D or EasyBake, Baseball or GURPS.  Whatever they come to me with, I'll try.

Before this last post (after my previous little rant), my son - honest to god - came to me and said he'd like to play D&D next Monday.

Now he doesn't have any idea what that means.  He just knows I play it and it's a game. So because I played the card games he likes tonight, he obviously wants to repay the kindness and play a game I like. That's part of it.  The other part is how I've told him the army men game we play is a first step to learning games like D&D, and it's kinda like his Duel Masters, so he's interested.

And Pundit, I don't care whether or not he plays at 15 or 50.  He's asked me now, so I'll show him now (he loves the Monster Manual). And if he wants to continue with me, I will.  If he wants to continue but not with Dad cause that's embarrasing, I will support him.  If he wants to arrange flowers, I'll by the vase. If you can't understand that, then you truly do lack the feeling of being a parent - no offense, but that's the case.

Quote from: James J SkachBefore this last post (after my previous little rant), my son - honest to god - came to me and said he'd like to play D&D next Monday.

Hey, yeah.  My son just came to me not but an hour ago and asked if we could start a roleplaying game sometime soon.  Seems he's been enjoying his freeform D&D sessions on the bus and he'd like to take it up more often at home, too.  

!i!

Quote from: James J SkachIt's not a mystery.  But I've been on both sides, I know the differences between life with kids, and life without them.  I've got an experience you don't have.  I'm not lording it over you, anymore than pointing out that you have a phd in religion or history or whatever (not a shot, I honestly don't remember as I write this) is lording it over me.

Yeah, see, not to belabor the point, but to get a History degree you need 4, 6, or 8 years (or more, if you're slow) of training and qualifications.

The only "qualifications" you need to be a parent are to have viable sperm and a viable egg to seed it with. A half-hour, a couch, and a couple of bottles of beer usually do the trick.

So yes, forgive me if I don't consider your being a parent to make you a greater expert on children than me in the same sense that you having a Masters in Physics would make you a greater expert on physics than me.

RPGPundit

Quote from: James J SkachBefore this last post (after my previous little rant), my son - honest to god - came to me and said he'd like to play D&D next Monday.

Now he doesn't have any idea what that means.  He just knows I play it and it's a game. So because I played the card games he likes tonight, he obviously wants to repay the kindness and play a game I like. That's part of it.  The other part is how I've told him the army men game we play is a first step to learning games like D&D, and it's kinda like his Duel Masters, so he's interested.

And Pundit, I don't care whether or not he plays at 15 or 50.  He's asked me now, so I'll show him now (he loves the Monster Manual). And if he wants to continue with me, I will.  If he wants to continue but not with Dad cause that's embarrasing, I will support him.  If he wants to arrange flowers, I'll by the vase. If you can't understand that, then you truly do lack the feeling of being a parent - no offense, but that's the case.

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I can emphasize with the desire to do so, don't get me wrong.

It doesn't mean that I don't think you'd be better serving the kid by playing a kid's game with him now, and making D&D a rite of passage for him when he's older.

One of the reasons why civilization is crumbling is because there are no healthy rites of passage anymore.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYeah, see, not to belabor the point, but to get a History degree you need 4, 6, or 8 years (or more, if you're slow) of training and qualifications.

The only "qualifications" you need to be a parent are to have viable sperm and a viable egg to seed it with. A half-hour, a couch, and a couple of bottles of beer usually do the trick.

That's a massive failure of parallelism.  The conception is the beginning of learning to be a parent.  Just as with the physics student, the actual learning comes from constant interaction with and study of the basics of the subject ... in this case, small children.

Am I supposed to compare my physics knowledge against a freshman who just today enrolled in the physics major?  Seems to me that he doesn't know a whole lot more than me.  I guess a degree really doesn't mean anything!   Of course, if I compare to the guy who's studied the subject for four years I'll probably find that he knows his subject a helluva lot better than I do.

Likewise:  If you want to compare your knowledge against a parent on the day they take their child home from the hospital, that's one comparison.  Not a useful one, but it's a comparison.  But the comparison that's relevant here is with peole who have years of intensive (often approaching far too closely to 24 hours a day, 365 days a year) exposure to children, and a vested interest in studying them and figuring out how they tick.

Do you have some reason for dismissing that experience?