So since I'm going on yet another tangent, I'm going to please the forum cops and create another thread for it. Rant ahead. Enjoy.
I cringed when I read this:
Quote from: The Butcher;393249Yeah, it gets old quick, but I'm all for it. When it comes to retro-clones, the more the merrier, as long as they're free of course.
If this was Serious Business, I can see how glut would be a Bad Thing. If the authors are seriously thinking of selling it in game stores, for cold, hard cash, I suspect that's a good, sure-fire recipe for heartbreak. But free PDFs on the intarwebz? Go crazy.
Disclaimer: NOT Butcher specific. I know he didn't intend to go nearly as far as what I'm going after here in this rant. He just provided me with the occasion to write this post. He is not my target here. The meme is.
The meme: "RPGs are serious business". Comes from "the internet is serious business" meme.
My contention: the meme is just used by geeks to refer to other geeks as being "more geeks" than themselves. A sort of "I'm more mature than thou" argument that actually doesn't bring squat to conversations besides finger pointing at each other.
I hate this serious business meme.
It is complete, utter bullshit. Yes, we are talking about games and entertainment. We also happen to have people on this board who make (part of) a living out of this source of entertainment. People who've been enjoying this source of entertainment for many years, decades also. Who've come to meet friends and loved ones through it, and share moments with their children and nephews while playing. Who love tangentially related things through role playing games. Who value any or all activities related to role playing games, like say world-building, painting miniatures, designing characters, acting them out, whatever it is they like about them. Role playing games have been part of their lives for a while, and they're intertwined with so many other things that they really are part of a greater whole to them.
Yes. RPGs can be talked about seriously.
You don't want to, that's fine by me, but I don't have to just shut up because you think I'm being geekier than thou. Yes, I'm a geek. I know this already. If you think pointing the finger at me in such a manner makes you any cooler than I am, you're seriously deluded, my friend. You're just acting like a dick by being an unoriginal mightier-than-thou jerkwad on the intarwebz.
Congratulations.
Welcome to the Machine.
You have now been assimilated.
Quote from: Benoist;393315Yes. RPGs can be talked about seriously.
Indeed they can, just not
too seriously and not all the time.
That leads to embolisms.
Quote from: One Horse Town;393317Indeed they can, just not too seriously and not all the time.
I'll agree to that. Particularly the latter part.
Entertainment is serious business if its your livelihood. Otherwise, not so much. But for people who lack a fully engaging life (and that's most people), it's not surprising that hobbies become a major or even total focus. I have met plenty of sports fans who out-freakygeek any RPGer I've ever encountered.
Never met a gamer who had a D&D logos covering their hat, jacket, shirt and pants at the same time and had memorized the names and history of all the D&D contributors for the past decades. However, I bet we all have met that sports guy with the "my local team is way better than your local team" mentality to the extreme.
Quote from: Benoist;393315I hate this serious business meme.
What don't you hate?
Next you'll be bitching about a lack of puppies on Equipment lists.
Quote from: Spinachcat;393319What don't you hate?
Next you'll be bitching about a lack of puppies on Equipment lists.
That's always pissed me off.
Maybe I don't WANT a full-grown wardog.
Quote from: Spinachcat;393319What don't you hate?
Plenty of things we actually get to talk about on the boards. If you want some threads I posted where there's no ranting involved, try the medieval eurth brainstorm (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17292), the OD&D character sheet brainstorm (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17608), the st. makhab level (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17617), the Charnel Crypt of the Sightless Serpent review (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17320), the Majestic Wilderlands reading (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17019), D Day adventures (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17457), Confrontation miniatures (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17403), Tell me more about Labyrinth Lords (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17629), Greyhawk names (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17426), RuneQuest II Combat = Awesome (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17399), RuneQuest II for Actual Dungeoneering (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17351), and so on, so forth.
Now granted, I haven't actually searched very much, and these are just a bunch of threads I started myself.
Quote from: Spinachcat;393319Next you'll be bitching about a lack of puppies on Equipment lists.
Not a bad idea for a rant, actually! :D
Quote from: Spinachcat;393319Next you'll be bitching about a lack of puppies on Equipment lists.
Tangental, brief game anecdote:
In the first Iron Heroes game I played in, the GM was using "corrupted spiritualism". The group spiritualist stocked up on puppies as "fuel" for his mojo. Fortunately, I think he though better of it later since they were never mentioned again (or the GM had a private word with him about it).
Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;393335Tangental, brief game anecdote:
In the first Iron Heroes game I played in, the GM was using "corrupted spiritualism". The group spiritualist stocked up on puppies as "fuel" for his mojo. Fortunately, I think he though better of it later since they were never mentioned again (or the GM had a private word with him about it).
LOL Reminds me of Ghul and his houserule for throwing sand in the eye of your opponent specifically designed to discourage people from exploring dungeons with bags of sand around their belts. Guess there's something to it, heh? :D
surely you're not implying that there are rants on MY forum.
(edit: side note - I know the guy who created the "serious business" meme. And the "arguing on the internet/special olympics" meme, and the "All Your Base" meme - he used to post over at portalofevil.com, but started those particular ones on somethingawful.com's forums)
Quote from: thedungeondelver;393337surely you're not implying that there are rants on MY forum.
Nah. No such thing on the delver's dungeon. (http://www.thedelversdungeon.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=780) :D
Well I guess RE is allowed to be sorta right about some things.
Quote from: Spinachcat;393319Next you'll be bitching about a lack of puppies on Equipment lists.
That's why you buy two wardogs.
The "serious business" stuff always makes me think of the "old school" Farador session (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5825493270005637835#). "This is a serious game." :)
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;393356The "serious business" stuff always makes me think of the "old school" Farador session (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5825493270005637835#). "This is a serious game." :)
LOL I watched this video some time ago. That's a good one. :D
Quote from: Spinachcat;393319Entertainment is serious business if its your livelihood. Otherwise, not so much. But for people who lack a fully engaging life (and that's most people), it's not surprising that hobbies become a major or even total focus. I have met plenty of sports fans who out-freakygeek any RPGer I've ever encountered.
This is all true. For some time now in seeing who I'd like to game with, I've applied a "2 out of 3 test," designed to weed out the nutter geeks.
In my view, there are four basic areas of our social and personal lives: friends/family, intimate, work and hobby. Simply having things labelled as "work" etc in their life doesn't mean they are really sufficient for the person. These have to be emotionally rewarding relationships.
It's been my observation that if a person has all four of these things, they're happy and fulfilled. When they have troubles in one area, the other 3 can easily support it. If they have 3/4, they're happy but do occasionally wish for more, and troubles in one can put a strain on the other, but not a lethal strain.
If they've 2/4, things become more delicate, as troubles in one cause the person to lean heavily on the other, and it's often not much of a base to build the 3rd and 4th from.
If you've 1/4 then you tend to put everything into it. This leads to those crazy adolescent relationships which might end in a suicide pact, or the boring guy who lives for his work and goes home to an empty apartment where he does more work, etc.
Everyone can be without some of these things for a couple of years when they move to a new city, or after an intimate relationship ends and the husband takes all the friends, etc. But most socially adjusted people will pick themselves up and manage 3/4 within a couple of years. If someone has had 0-2 of the 4 for 5+ years, generally there's something a bit wacky about them. There's a reason for it. When dealing with geeks, we know they have 1/4 already, the hobby. So I just worry about the other 3. They have to have at least 2/3 of friends/family, intimate and work. If they've one or none, they'll be trouble.
This brings us to geeks and Serious Business. If someone has only work in their life, naturally they'll be a bit loopy about it and take it overly seriously. They've got nothing else. Likewise, with rpgs as a hobby. Ironically, having just one or two things in your life does not necessarily mean you'll be good at them. You might care
too much to be good.
You missed one. It's actually 5 things. Friends/family, intimate, work, hobby and TV.
Never trust anyone who doesn't watch TV.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;393362(good stuff)
I agree with all this.
Now, when you're talking about some topic on the web related to role playing games, you can both care enough about said topic to want to discuss it without gonzo shit and various internet memes thrown in, and yet, be a balanced individual in your work, relationships, what have you. It's not because you can talk seriously about role playing games that suddenly you're a whackjob living in your mom's basement. The same way, arguing about something on a message board about this or that topic does not make one unbalanced either.
The whole meme strikes me as completely made up shit to just be able to differentiate "good Geeks" from "bad Geeks" somehow.
Quote from: Benoist;393364The whole meme strikes me as completely made up shit to just be able to differentiate "good Geeks" from "bad Geeks" somehow.
It's the same as tl;dr, "Some people have no lives" etc. Just flippant bullshit people toss off to dismiss someone out of hand (usually because they have no cogent argument to respond with.)
Quote from: Benoist;393364It's not because you can talk seriously about role playing games that suddenly you're a whackjob living in your mom's basement.
Of course. But sometimes the
tone of some of the people discussing things makes me wonder. Like on that Dragonsfoot thread Sacrificial Lamb and Joethelawyer were bitching about, a game group broke up after six years because some wights level-drained someone's henchman. Plainly there were other things going on with the group, but nope, everyone wanted to talk about level-draining and teh r00lz. That's FreakSign right there.
Quote from: Soylent Green;393363You missed one. It's actually 5 things. Friends/family, intimate, work, hobby and TV.
Never trust anyone who doesn't watch TV.
How do you define that??
One of my frequent players only watches the occassional news program on TV and maybe a documentary or two.
The last series she watched 'NEW' was "Battlestar Galactica" - but that was mostly the DVDs.
She has admitted a recent fondness for the show "NCIS".
She does watch TV - but mostly only stuff on DVBD that her friends recommend she might like based on her past preference. Both she and her husband have lives so busy that they tenmd not to watch shows on a schedled weekly basis.
Of course her TV preferences might be because she grew up in Europe, not the USA..
Also, Sean Punch/ Kromm doesn't have a working TV last I heard. He has watched a few things on DVD over the past few years - again based on what his friends and colleagues told him might be entertaining or good.
- Ed C.
Quote from: One Horse Town;393317Indeed they can, just not too seriously and not all the time.
That leads to embolisms.
...and missing out on the fun.
Many times when a browser/visitor stops into the store and asks why do people plays RPGS or D&D I answer with :
"Because they can be quite a lot of Fun with a group of people."
- Ed C.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;393362If they've one or none, they'll be trouble.
Or you know, some of us are mostly sane, but just kinda shy. I have plenty of friends and I go out all the time, I'm attending college and I have a pretty decent paying job (though it lacks a purpose other than making money), but I'm not really a natural at picking up women. Unless you count part-time college and a job I mainly have for the sake of money as totaling "work", I've only got 2 on there.
I also know people with all 4 bases covered and they're still batshit crazy.
Quote from: Peregrin;393445I have plenty of friends
+1 = 1/3
QuoteI'm attending college
+1 = 2/3
Quotebut I'm not really a natural at picking up women.
I didn't say anything about picking up, I talked about an "intimate". Sex wasn't mentioned. Someone you're close to and trust absolutely, a closeness you share with no-one else. But let's call it +0. Still, as you say, that's 2/3. You pass.
If you have the social skills to maintain 2 of 3 of work, family/friends or intimate, then you're very unlikely to be some kind of weirdo we run from. It's simply a test to see if you're likely to be a freak. Because they're out there. Now, you can be non-freaky and we still don't get along in gaming, that's fine. But I won't mind your knowing when I live. I won't expect you to show up randomly five years after we last gamed together and tell me frightening stories about your life. Which has happened.
QuoteI also know people with all 4 bases covered and they're still batshit crazy.
I think when you enquire more narrowly you'll find that they have them nominally, they're not really happy. A wife you never have sex with because you're unattracted to each-other and who you've been thinking about leaving for six years isn't an
intimate. A job you hate which pays the bills isn't
work. And so on.
Happy, well-adjusted people make better people to share hobbies with. Unhappy, mal-adjusted people make worse ones. Exactly how shy a person is, not really relevant. Unless it's pathological shyness shutting you in the house, it just means you'll have fewer but deeper relationships, that's fine and normal. If you've pathological shyness you won't be much fun to game with, sorry.
Quote from: Kyle AaronBut I won't mind your knowing when I live. I won't expect you to show up randomly five years after we last gamed together and tell me frightening stories about your life. Which has happened.
Jesus. I understand your reason for the test now. :eek:
And yeah -- a guy who GMs a Dark Heresy campaign I'm playing in (but may soon drop out of...in fact I skipped the last game) doesn't pass the test. He's not creepy, but he's
not fun to game with at all. He lives with his parents (I think he's 3-4 years older than me...so let's say 26-28?), works a dead-end job (he graduated with a useless degree and never pursued any real careers), is majorly overweight, doesn't have a girlfriend, and has admitted he doesn't have many (if any) friends -- he mainly socializes with the people at the LGS. He channels a shitton of negativity, even when he doesn't mean to -- it's pretty draining to be around him.
I mean seriously, either shit or get off the pot. If you're on THIS forum (or any other forum dedicated to RPGs) you clearly do not feel that RPGs are "just a game", and you're just using one of the lamest tactics ever as a pathetic attempt to shut down debate that you don't feel you have the intellectual or moral backbone to defend your position on. Its bullshit.
Obviously, every one of us here feels that RPGs are "serious business" as a game, as a hobby, as a pass-time or a creative endeavour. That doesn't mean that we should treat them as motherfucking High Art or as some kind of pseudo-intellectual academic study, but that we should be willing to go all-in on actually standing up for our vision of what RPGs are, and take them seriously within that context. To say that RPGs are a serious thing does not mean that you have to go the Swine route; on the contrary, its usually those who are utter failures at grokking the concept of RPGs for what they really are who rally around these movements to try to bring utterly un-necessary pretentiousness to the hobby, and then (when they are losing an argument) very quickly turn around and pull the "Its Just A Game" card when they want to try to silence the victorious opposition.
On the other end of clearly circular spectrum are the would-be Hipsters who think that by trying to say "Its Just A Game" they're showing off some kind of faux-"Cool" at investing years of their lives into the hobby but not actually being willing to engage with that in a serious way. Seriously, motherfucker?! The guys who have put in time to the hobby but DON'T act like they're ashamed of it are the losers? Seriously?!
Man up, bucky. Buy the ticket, take the ride.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Peregrin;393464And yeah -- a guy who GMs a Dark Heresy campaign I'm playing in (but may soon drop out of...in fact I skipped the last game) [...] it's pretty draining to be around him.
That's the kind of person I mean.
If the person can't maintain happy relationships outside their game group, they won't be able to do so in the game group, either.
Again, everyone goes through dark patches. You move to a new country, lose your girlfriend and she takes all the friends, whatever. But most people sort themselves out in a couple of years.
Those who don't, well like I said - sure, rpgs can be taken seriously, but they shouldn't be taken
to heart. I'm not going to quit a six-year campaign because the DM had some wights drain a level of one of my henchmen.
Quote from: Koltar;393439How do you define that??
One of my frequent players only watches the occassional news program on TV and maybe a documentary or two.
I was just kidding :-)
Let's not forget that EGG himself, while a serious game designer, was not without humor. Subtly it is included in almost game, every game adventure he ever wrote. For the DM, it provides a little smile or laugh while you are reviewing the contents of the adventure during game prep. Other times you roll your eyes and groan: "Egads, the corn!"
Quote from: Soylent Green;393486I was just kidding :-)
Good.
I didn't own a TV for 8 years. The wife made me buy one. And while she watches some stuff, I'm in that some place with a few documentaries, I watched 'The Pacific' recently, and a pretty bad, jingoistic nationalistic history of the US (that still had fascinationg details). Just not into the tube.