This all seems rather ambiguous to me.

I would find it helpful to know what rpg's do that other entertainment mediums do not.

What experience do rpg's provide that is wholly unique to this hobby?

Quote from: Sigmund;378814You thinking it doesn't make it true.



If you sit the D&D book in front of you, and talk about D&D characters, but never open the books, or roll any dice, you're not playing D&D, you're talking about it. D&D is a game that has rules that make use of occasional random outcomes. As long as you're engaging with some or all of the rules of the D&D game, then sure... you're playing D&D. If you're just sitting around a table making up stories using fluff from D&D books you're not playing D&D, because you're not using any of the game's rules.

A very specific and extreme example. What is they made PCs from a point build system and narrated their actions in a diceless method by stat comparison moderated by GM fiat? Still D&D? Still an RPG?
The real point is why does it matter. If some guys want to play a narative story game based on D&D tropes and call it an RPG why should we care?

I guess the point I am trying to make , albeit in a rather clumsy way, is that by defining what an RPG is you exclude stuff you haven't thought of. The defintion you use of it's a game in which you play a role is fine except that I suspect that for you a 'game' is a specific thing with a set of rules and mechanical resolutions and this might exclude some stuff that other people call a game. Even the term role is open to interpretation. In Chess are you playing the role of a general leading his army? In a game with a troupe approach where you play multiple characters in different aspects of game play are you playing a role or multiple roles?
When I play Escape from Colditz each one of my little wooden men has a name and a personality. Polowski is a bit crazy and always goes on do or die missions or tries to grap the generals staff car, Captian Winger is a tunnel guy careful and methodical etc etc ... is that a roleplaying game ? Does it matter?

So what is this definition of an RPG for? Is it for discussion here on the boards? Is it an academic description which will need to be well defined but will be filled with exceptions outside a narrow academic focus? Is it a design tool? If so then you are better off sayign this is a design tool for immersive table top RPGS because the parameters between even that which you woudl define as an RPG vary largely.

Quote from: jibbajibba;378881A very specific and extreme example. What is they made PCs from a point build system and narrated their actions in a diceless method by stat comparison moderated by GM fiat? Still D&D? Still an RPG?
The real point is why does it matter. If some guys want to play a narative story game based on D&D tropes and call it an RPG why should we care?

I guess the point I am trying to make , albeit in a rather clumsy way, is that by defining what an RPG is you exclude stuff you haven't thought of. The defintion you use of it's a game in which you play a role is fine except that I suspect that for you a 'game' is a specific thing with a set of rules and mechanical resolutions and this might exclude some stuff that other people call a game. Even the term role is open to interpretation. In Chess are you playing the role of a general leading his army? In a game with a troupe approach where you play multiple characters in different aspects of game play are you playing a role or multiple roles?
When I play Escape from Colditz each one of my little wooden men has a name and a personality. Polowski is a bit crazy and always goes on do or die missions or tries to grap the generals staff car, Captian Winger is a tunnel guy careful and methodical etc etc ... is that a roleplaying game ? Does it matter?

So what is this definition of an RPG for? Is it for discussion here on the boards? Is it an academic description which will need to be well defined but will be filled with exceptions outside a narrow academic focus? Is it a design tool? If so then you are better off sayign this is a design tool for immersive table top RPGS because the parameters between even that which you woudl define as an RPG vary largely.

If you're completely abandoning the D&D rules then no, of course you're not playing  D&D, you're playing your own game based on or inspired by D&D, and of course it's an RPG. It's a game where you're playing a role. Simple as that. Nothing wrong with playing your own game based on D&D, that's what most folks do with OD&D to a greater or lesser extent anyway.  If it rocks for you guys then cool.

I completely disagree about the alleged consequences you put forth for defining RPGs. RPGs are self-defined anyway, and any specific thing that fails to be defined by the term RPG suffers in no way at all. Free-form roleplaying is just fine, and can easily be enjoyed by it's participants, without being labelled as "a roleplaying game". The FFRP folks can even also enjoy RPGing freely and without restriction if they choose, or really anything else they want to pursue as a hobby. Same goes for board gaming, wargaming, poker players, CCGers, race car drivers, etc.

Oh, and just giving names to playing pieces doesn't equate to playing their role. Let me ask you this, if you don't define "roleplaying game", how do you recognise one when you see it? When you talk to other folks about roleplaying gaming, do you find yourself having to be specific about which game or games you're referring too because you feel the definition must be left so broad as to be completely useless in conversation?

I'm not sure I find your basing your argument on your own unfounded suspicions on how I define "game" or even "role" to be very helpful. If you don't know what I mean, do you not perhaps think it'd be more useful to ask me before telling me how wrong I am? Would considering murder mystery dinner games or LARPs as being RPGs, but not board games, still be too restrictive for you?

Oh, and to answer your question about troupe play, if you're assuming the role of a group of characters then of course it's RPGing. I'm as much a fan of Ars Magica as I am of D&D. Have 4th and 5th editions.

The definition of RPG is self-defined, and is there for whatever purpose you put to any word or term in any language.

Quote from: Shazbot79;378880This all seems rather ambiguous to me.

I would find it helpful to know what rpg's do that other entertainment mediums do not.

What experience do rpg's provide that is wholly unique to this hobby?

RPGs allow you to sit around a table with some friends and/or like-minded folks and pretend to be people you're not in a more or less structured manner. Other mediums don't do that.

Quote from: Sigmund;378814You thinking it doesn't make it true.



If you sit the D&D book in front of you, and talk about D&D characters, but never open the books, or roll any dice, you're not playing D&D, you're talking about it. D&D is a game that has rules that make use of occasional random outcomes. As long as you're engaging with some or all of the rules of the D&D game, then sure... you're playing D&D. If you're just sitting around a table making up stories using fluff from D&D books you're not playing D&D, because you're not using any of the game's rules.

What if you use the rules right up until the GM decides he doesn't like what is happening, and breaks away from his notes or lies about dice rolls so that their outcomes don't matter. If you lose a fight but some special event or person outside of PC control steps in and saves he story, is it still d&d? The dice don't matter but you were still rolling them.

I think it is definitely dungeons and dragons, even if the dice are a formality.

Quote from: Sigmund;378891Oh, and just giving names to playing pieces doesn't equate to playing their role. Let me ask you this, if you don't define "roleplaying game", how do you recognise one when you see it? When you talk to other folks about roleplaying gaming, do you find yourself having to be specific about which game or games you're referring too because you feel the definition must be left so broad as to be completely useless in conversation?

But you have to define things using your definition as well. If you are talking about RPGS and some guy says he loves Fallout3 or Larping you have to say no I mean tabletop RPGs. You have already narrowed your defintion. Then when he says well I tried Heroquest you have to narrow your defintion still further. Basically you always need to narrow your scope to the specifics its a given so why narrow the scope at the outset?

Quote from: Cranewings;378898What if you use the rules right up until the GM decides he doesn't like what is happening, and breaks away from his notes or lies about dice rolls so that their outcomes don't matter. If you lose a fight but some special event or person outside of PC control steps in and saves he story, is it still d&d? The dice don't matter but you were still rolling them.

I think it is definitely dungeons and dragons, even if the dice are a formality.

Deus Ex Machina has been used in D&D many times, so sure, why not. But I'm sure if you try hard enough you can come up with an extreme enough example to get me to say no, that's not D&D anymore if you try hard enough. It's simple, if you're using the rules from D&D to play, you're playing D&D. If you're not, you're not. If you break out a Monopoly game, use the dice to make moves around the board, but throw out the money, the whole idea of buying property, and just race each other around the board for 10 laps, are you still playing Monopoly, or are you just using the Monopoly junk to play your own game?

Quote from: jibbajibba;378902But you have to define things using your definition as well. If you are talking about RPGS and some guy says he loves Fallout3 or Larping you have to say no I mean tabletop RPGs. You have already narrowed your defintion. Then when he says well I tried Heroquest you have to narrow your defintion still further. Basically you always need to narrow your scope to the specifics its a given so why narrow the scope at the outset?

You can't help but narrow the scope. The only way to not be narrowing the scope is to define the term "roleplaying game" to include everything in the universe. Othewise, you're narrowing it in some way. I narrow it in a way that allows the words "role", "playing", and "game" to be included in the objects/activities to which I'm referring when I use the term. That way, when I'm talking to someone they understand right away that I'm talking about games, and more specifically, types of games that involve playing roles. Then we can discuss specifics if we want or need to. Similarly, when I mention that I like cars, people get an idea, but I then narrow it down to sports cars, specifically small, British-style 2-seat roadster type sports cars, usually convertible. When I mention my passion for photography, you might not be immediately aware that I prefer macro, wildlife, and scenic photography, but I'm sure if we care to discuss it further we'll get to that. I honestly don't understand the difficulty in understanding this concept.

Quote from: Sigmund;378892RPGs allow you to sit around a table with some friends and/or like-minded folks and pretend to be people you're not in a more or less structured manner. Other mediums don't do that.

So what about D&D games that are played via forum, google wave or MUD?

Are these not roleplaying games?

Quote from: Shazbot79;378912So what about D&D games that are played via forum, google wave or MUD?

Are these not roleplaying games?

I'm not sure what part is confusing ya. On these fora, waves, or MUDs, are you assuming a role while playing a game? If you are then yes, it's RPGing. I'm playing in Werekoala's pbp game on this forum right now in fact, and it's very much RPGing. We're using rules and playing roles... simple as that. If the table's virtual, then so be it. I'm having a hard time believing your post specifically isn't a troll. If you can't tell the difference between RPGing and reading a book or watching a movie, then I'm not sure what you're even doing here because it would be obvious to me you've never RPged before. You can nitpick and bring up more and more extreme examples until we reach the point where my answer will change I'm quite sure, but I not convinced that would be for any other purpose than to satisfy some kind of need to be argumentative. I'm not in the mood to indulge that, so I'll end my participation with you here.

Quote from: Sigmund;378919I'm not sure what part is confusing ya. On these fora, waves, or MUDs, are you assuming a role while playing a game? If you are then yes, it's RPGing. I'm playing in Werekoala's pbp game on this forum right now in fact, and it's very much RPGing. We're using rules and playing roles... simple as that. If the table's virtual, then so be it. I'm having a hard time believing your post specifically isn't a troll. If you can't tell the difference between RPGing and reading a book or watching a movie, then I'm not sure what you're even doing here because it would be obvious to me you've never RPged before. You can nitpick and bring up more and more extreme examples until we reach the point where my answer will change I'm quite sure, but I not convinced that would be for any other purpose than to satisfy some kind of need to be argumentative. I'm not in the mood to indulge that, so I'll end my participation with you here.

Sorry...but the OP spent so much time defining what a role playing game ISN'T without regard to define exactly what it IS.

I suspect that Benoist's rant has more to do with defining the medium according to his playstyle rather than as a whole...which entices me to argue.

So this leads me to wonder, what are the specific games that advertise themselves as rpg's but are actually something else entirely?

Quote from: Shazbot79;378922Sorry...but the OP spent so much time defining what a role playing game ISN'T without regard to define exactly what it IS.

I suspect that Benoist's rant has more to do with defining the medium according to his playstyle rather than as a whole...which entices me to argue.

So this leads me to wonder, what are the specific games that advertise themselves as rpg's but are actually something else entirely?

You'll have to ask Benny.

Quote from: Shazbot79;378922Sorry...but the OP spent so much time defining what a role playing game ISN'T without regard to define exactly what it IS.

I suspect that Benoist's rant has more to do with defining the medium according to his playstyle rather than as a whole...which entices me to argue.

So this leads me to wonder, what are the specific games that advertise themselves as rpg's but are actually something else entirely?

I didn't define a Role Playing Game on purpose.

Think about it that way: strip an RPG of all references to anything else. What do you think does remain?

Quote from: Benoist;378931I didn't define a Role Playing Game on purpose.

Think about it that way: strip an RPG of all references to anything else. What do you think does remain?

Randomness.

Quote from: Benoist;378931I didn't define a Role Playing Game on purpose.

Think about it that way: strip an RPG of all references to anything else. What do you think does remain?

Hm, well since you specify:

Quote from: Benoist;378672RPGs are not "wargames".
RPGs are not "board games".
RPGs are not "video games".
RPGs are not "card games".

That almost seems to strip out the "game" aspect. If you strip out from the definition of role-playing games the things it has in common with war/board/video/card games in the same way you want to strip out the story-telling aspects from any definition, then what kind of game is left? The only sorts of rules that would fit would have to be directly related to enforcing, guiding or encouraging the playing of a role. In slightly more concrete terms, the most roleplaying-ly rules of all might be those that enforced setting, or character boundaries, things like Sanity rules in CoC, or the Virtues and Passions of Pendragon. Things that deepen the player's understanding of the role they are playing. Does that make any sense?

QuoteAnything beyond that just seems to bring more and more noise to the hobby, muddies the waters, and ultimately, changes role playing games into what they never were, should not be, and must not become.

This is where I part ways from the OP. Why shouldn't RPGs go in a wide variety of directions, adopts forms from all over the place to suit specific roleplaying desires?