Quote from: jibbajibba;378734Take kids kids play games that have few rules, no mechanics and they are still games by general definition. If I play a game of 'pirates' with my daughter we are pirates, we are playing a game....
Now you might argue that that doesn't fit into your definition of a game but who cares?

Truer words have never been spoken.   The first roleplaying game I played was pretending I was a ninja turtle on the kindergarten playground, we called it "the ninja turtle game."

Quote from: theuglyknight;378741Truer words have never been spoken.   The first roleplaying game I played was pretending I was a ninja turtle on the kindergarten playground, we called it "the ninja turtle game."

Bunch of diceless storygaming swine!

When I was a kid I never thought of playing cops/robbers, cowboys/indians, pimps/hos as 'games'... it was just 'play'. Games were things with a win/lose outcome.
The only reason I want the 'game' in RPG is to resolve those tired, "Bang! you're dead!" "No I'm not!" arguments.


I didn't so much take Benoist's OP as directed at the debate over what is/isn't an RPG...
Instead I took it to be about insecure designers that are trying to make their rules 'emulate' other, more 'legitimate' mediums... movies, books, MMOs.

Recently I was looking at a Final Fantasy RPG... I just wanted the setting stuff but what the rules instead concentrated on was recreating the video game play experience on the tabletop... it's a lot less sweat, and more to the point, to play the damn video game.
I'm not saying such a thing wouldn't be an RPG... but it's an RPG trying to be a video game... which just seems dumb to me... and kind of insecure about what the inherent strengths of RPGs are, trusting them to provide a great, unique style of experience all their own.

Quote from: Simlasa;378746When I was a kid I never thought of playing cops/robbers, cowboys/indians, pimps/hos as 'games'... it was just 'play'. Games were things with a win/lose outcome.
The only reason I want the 'game' in RPG is to resolve those tired, "Bang! you're dead!" "No I'm not!" arguments.

Same here.

QuoteI didn't so much take Benoist's OP as directed at the debate over what is/isn't an RPG...
Instead I took it to be about insecure designers that are trying to make their rules 'emulate' other, more 'legitimate' mediums... movies, books, MMOs.

Me too, I've just been participating in going off on a tangent. If Benny wants I'll stop, pretty much said my piece anyway. Hopefully my position is kinda hard to accidentally misinterpret.

QuoteRecently I was looking at a Final Fantasy RPG... I just wanted the setting stuff but what the rules instead concentrated on was recreating the video game play experience on the tabletop... it's a lot less sweat, and more to the point, to play the damn video game.
I'm not saying such a thing wouldn't be an RPG... but it's an RPG trying to be a video game... which just seems dumb to me... and kind of insecure about what the inherent strengths of RPGs are, trusting them to provide a great, unique style of experience all their own.

Once again, I agree. That's what I don't like about the EQ RPG. I love EQ's setting and backstory, but trying to translate the MMO gameplay to the TT is folly IMO. Use the setting, use the history, then make a RPG with it, that stands on it's own merits and provides decent gameplay of it's own.

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." -- James Nicoll

Alternatively: what does roleplaying have in common with pro wrestling and jazz?

I'm with several others that beyond a pretty basic definition, RPGs should cast a wide net. LordVreeg and jibbajabba have both hit it  on the head. RPGs don't have to be stories, video games, board games, or experiments--those things aren't essential to RPGs in any way, but neither do I think being those things necessarily excludes any specific activity from also being a RPG.

It's well and good to define from the center, but it's at the edges that you nail down precisely what makes RPGs and what makes them not. I don't think improv theatre is a roleplaying game, but I do think murder mystery dinner games are. Sussing out the reasons why I think so, and making a definition that excludes the one and includes the other helps me understand what is the essential activity of a role-playing game.

Personally, I resist the storygames label at this site for a couple of reasons:

1) the distinction between the two is very small. If me and my buddies play Grey Ranks one night and then Dark Heresy the next, what is going on around the table on those nights contains far more similarities than difference. I'd be happy to talk about storygames as a technical distinction except...

2) there is so much bullshit polemic around it at this site. It has been a term that people have used in the process of being clicquey, elitist pricks.

Very interesting feedback. Thanks everyone!

Just a bunch of disclaimers at this point: I'm not claiming to stand above the fray in this. I may not think of RPGs in terms of stories, say, but I might think about them in terms of wargames, for instance. I think that's something we pretty much all do, subconsciously or not.

I'm not trying to claim that RPGs are "just games" either. The question of what an RPG is and is not is central to this topic, and I deliberately avoided any attempt at a definition. If there is such a thing, it is what remains once you strip RPGs from any reference to other media, in my mind. What that would be, is a good question indeed. I'm not sure I have an answer to that.

The OP keeps referring to "the problem". What problem?

The only problem I see is that, ever since there have been roleplaying games there has been a bunch of roleplayers who feel it's their duty to tell all the other rolepalyers that they are doing it wrong.

Unsurprisingly that doesn't actually work and people carry on doing what they want to do. How annoying is that?

Quote from: Soylent Green;378755Unsurprisingly that doesn't actually work and people carry on doing what they want to do. How annoying is that?

It's not annoying. Not even surprising, actually.

It seems to me we are looking at it from the inside and not from the general approach.  If we, generally speaking a group of people who know a lot about the subject try and define it.  We are putting our bias on the term.

But to the outside world Roleplaying Games (well ok Dungeons and Dragons) are a collective unit.  They don't see or care about the distinction.  They are all a bunch of games where you have a character you tell some story and you roll dice.  That's about as specific as they could get (if they even knew that much).  We can further dissect that for our own uses because we may only want to talk about this play style vs that.  But that's for our needs alone.

It's no different then a lay person being told to go buy some wood and a master carpenter raging into the night about specifics depending on his exacting needs.

Quote from: Sigmund;378736In order for the term "roleplaying game" to have any kind of usefulness, there needs to be some things it doesn't describe. Where would you set the boundaries, and why?

IMO, any game in which you play a role, regardless of any meta constructs or agendas in place.

I prefer using the term in a broad, inclusive manner.

Quote from: Thanlis;378751"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." -- James Nicoll

Alternatively: what does roleplaying have in common with pro wrestling and jazz?

Well Pro-wrestling is easy... there are these guys and they are all playing a role ...

Jazz well ...nice

Quote from: jibbajibba;378772Well Pro-wrestling is easy... there are these guys and they are all playing a role ...

Jazz well ...nice

Two great wrestlers can be just like Jazz, with the improv and all...but I suppose you have to have a certain mindset in order to appreciate that.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;378773Two great wrestlers can be just like Jazz, with the improv and all...but I suppose you have to have a certain mindset in order to appreciate that.

I don't think anyone could ever find a Jazz musician who would appreciate that.  

Quote from: jeff37923;378775I don't think anyone could ever find a Jazz musician who would appreciate that.  

Actually...one of the athletic commissioners here in Oklahoma who covers most of our shows is a Jazz musician on the side and a huge fan of wrestling.  I believe he just might.