Quote from: Tommy Brownell;378702But to the opposite extreme, we have had people on this very board complain that games with Action Points/Drama Points/Bennies/What Have You are no longer RPGs but "story games" or some other nonsense.

Ok. That still doesn't make CCGs or amateur acting troupes RPGs, whether "story" games are or not. What I wonder is why some folks who enjoy "story" games (and I mean real "story" games, not just RPGs with action/hero/luck points) have such a need to be labelled as RPGs. They may very well be, I have little interest in them, and so I'm not that familiar with them. I still wonder why there's such a fight over it. I would not consider what the free-form roleplaying folks do online as RPGing (the game is missing), but that hardly diminishes the value of such activities for folks that enjoy them. If "story" games depart so much from what RPGs are, why not create their own niche? We don't call RPGs "wargames", despite the hobby's origins in wargaming.

Quote from: Sigmund;378708Ok. That still doesn't make CCGs or amateur acting troupes RPGs, whether "story" games are or not. What I wonder is why some folks who enjoy "story" games (and I mean real "story" games, not just RPGs with action/hero/luck points) have such a need to be labelled as RPGs. They may very well be, I have little interest in them, and so I'm not that familiar with them. I still wonder why there's such a fight over it. I would not consider what the free-form roleplaying folks do online as RPGing (the game is missing), but that hardly diminishes the value of such activities for folks that enjoy them. If "story" games depart so much from what RPGs are, why not create their own niche? We don't call RPGs "wargames", despite the hobby's origins in wargaming.

There is a fight about it because normal gamers would never, on their own, make up a special name for role playing games that are about story instead of immersion. Calling certain RPGs "story games" is just an internet thing.

I've played plenty of D&D where the GM told a story and the dice didn't matter. You don't need a special game for that and it is still an rpg.

Quote from: Benoist;378672RPGs are not "tales".
RPGs are not "novels".
RPGs are not "stories".

RPGs are not "wargames".
RPGs are not "board games".
RPGs are not "video games".
RPGs are not "card games".

RPGs are not "movies".
RPGs are not "thesis".
RPGs are not "studies".
RPGs are not "experiments".

RPGs are not "campaigns".
RPGs are not "chronicles".
RPGs are not "modules".
RPGs are not "books".

RPGs are not made of "chapters".
Or "scenes". Or "story arcs". Or "plots".

I think that RPGs are just that: Role Playing Games.

Comparing RPGs to something else some people might better understand to get them to play a game? Seems only natural.

Anything beyond that just seems to bring more and more noise to the hobby, muddies the waters, and ultimately, changes role playing games into what they never were, should not be, and must not become.

I think we have a problem as gamers, and as designers too, in that we just can't help but compare RPGs to other things which are not RPGs, and can't help but modify RPGs to better fit the expecations of this or that other medium. And in the end? RPGs just remain bastard products, not a medium of their own.

If we want to change this, we need to treat role playing games as such. We need to stop endlessly comparing them to other things and try to shape them into something, anything, that they ultimately are not. This has been done time and time again, sometimes with pleasant results, and sometimes with not so pleasant ones. Regardless of these results, I think we need to get beyond this stage, somehow, and let RPGs be RPGs, and evolve as such.

This is not a question vocabulary, structures and design only. It's a problem of mindset and culture.

I don't know if we ever will. I sure wish we would, though.

Discuss.

The water is and shall remain muddy, as one would expect in a format so flexible, mutable, and adaptable.  I decry maneuvers to reduce this.  The evolution you speak of comes directly from the marriage of RPGs to other like mediums (some people seem to like LotR RPGs and Elric RPGs and Amber RPGs) especially such as the novels that inspire much of the RPG market.  

Story arcs and plots are the substructure and foundations for the longest running succesful RPG games.  This is not all an RPG is, but it is certainly a useful tool, as are most of your 'list of Naught'.

Getting on with them and pushing the evolution.maturation of the RPG hobby is merely a removal of small mindedness.  Increase the dialogue and respect.  Let me be heretical here, my friend.

Stop trying to make them 'only games'.  You want them to stand on themselves as a medium?  Then allow them the stature of the other mediums.  Every moron who propogates the 'it's just a game' attitude is condemning it to the second class status, the 'Bastard Child' status.
You can't have it both ways.  RPGs are games, they are fun, they can be casual, the same way that pulps and paper backs and bad campy moves are fun and lighthearded.
But RPGs can be socially relevant, they can change people and be mature, they can produce emotion, they have flexibility.  They can be art.  

Only when you allow them the freedom to be fun and serious, only when you allow them to be goofy and intellectual, only when you allow them to incorporate eveything on your 'Naught' list will they evolve into being an equal to movies and literature and performance.  

Only when they become equal in our minds will they stop being sublimated to other things.  You want RPGs to be treated as such, to stop endlessly comparing them to other things?  Treat them as equals to what they are being copmared to, and then it will happen.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;378705Because then those icky storygamers might wanna sit at our table, or those awful, elitist Forgers or Swine or whatever they're called, I can't keep up with the geek on geek name-calling anymore.

But you are missing the key benefit of just calling an RPG a game.  When those icky elitist types show up with their skewed views at your table.  You can tell them to 'shut the fuck up and play the game.'

If they don't like it send'em packing.

Quote from: Cranewings;378713There is a fight about it because normal gamers would never, on their own, make up a special name for role playing games that are about story instead of immersion. Calling certain RPGs "story games" is just an internet thing.

I've played plenty of D&D where the GM told a story and the dice didn't matter. You don't need a special game for that and it is still an rpg.

If the dice didn't matter, was there some other type of randomizer or method of task resolution? If so, how was it still D&D? I'd still call it an RPG, but not D&D, which uses dice for mechanics. If no dice or randomizer was used, then no, it's not an RPG, because the G is missing. If it's just a session that happened to not have contained anything that required engaging of the mechanics then bringing it up isn't even relevant.

If a game is about "story" rather than "immersion", where is the roleplaying? Does each player assume the role of one or more characters, and through those characters interact with a setting of some sort through game mechanics? If so, then I'd call it a RPG, although I'd also argue that some level of "immersion" is taking place (it's a spectrum, not a duality). If not, I wouldn't. I would say that, personal tastes aside, any game that has a player assuming the role of one or more characters and using game mechanics to interact with some sort of setting is a RPG, no matter what the stated goals of the game are. The vast majority of us game to be entertained, not for the goal of creating some sort of "story", but these ends don't define the thing IMO, it's the method that's used to achieve these goals that define the thing. Hell, it's right in the name... Role Playing Game.

To me RPGs are about friends getting together and having fun using their imaginations. Methods and nomenclature are just trappings.

Having fun? Great. Design. Play. Not having fun? Then jog on. No need to try to find the true Scotsman.

Quote from: SigmundIf a game is about "story" rather than "immersion", where is the roleplaying? ...Hell, it's right in the name... Role Playing Game

I love this.  Just saying...

I expect you to correct everyone who ever says "Kleenex" in place of tissue in front of you.

That said, a lot of indie games are using "story game" in place of RPG.

Quote from: Peregrin;378724I expect you to correct everyone who ever says "Kleenex" in place of tissue in front of you.

What for?

QuoteThat said, a lot of indie games are using "story game" in place of RPG.

So even they have decided that the game is better described by the label "story game" than by the label "roleplaying game". Nothing wrong with that at all.

Quote from: Sigmund;378689I agree as well, but then I keep seeing folks who complain because we're not considering CCGs or "free form theatre groups" as RPGs. We have to survey the borders as being somewhere....

You see, why ?

Who cares is a bunch of weird Finnish guys want to play an improv live action game about working in a modern hospital and call it an RPG? Why do I care is a CCG is produced in which you play a famous swashbuckler from fiction and some one calls it an RPG?

Subdivisions might be useful doe discussive purposes, I play LARPs, or I play Tabletop RPGs, or I play Computer RPGS and you might get down to a point where you are expressing your own lives and dislikes with I like Immersive Tabletop roleplaying or I like tactical tabletop roleplaying or whatever but these are only useful terms when you are describing a thing or expressing an opinion.

I really can't think of why you would want to exclude stuff from the RPG label except as a way to create a clic for some reason.

Guy: Yeah I love role-playing games
Girl : Wow me too
Guy: You serious?
Girl: Yeah I love 'em
Guy: Okay I'll get my D&D books.
Girl: Oh I was thinking of you, me my cousin Tina and some nuns' outfits.
Guy: Right, that sounds so much better, I'll get my +3 birch of thrashing
Girl: Now your talking ....

Quote from: jibbajibba;378727You see, why ?

In order to understand what the hell we are talking to each other about without having to make the first step spending an hour defining terms. We could play RPGs and call it "cooking", but then someone looking to talk about broiling some BBQ ribs would get a bit confused.

QuoteWho cares is a bunch of weird Finnish guys want to play an improv live action game about working in a modern hospital and call it an RPG? Why do I care is a CCG is produced in which you play a famous swashbuckler from fiction and some one calls it an RPG?

Not I. If they are indeed playing a game, and playing roles in the game, then RPGing is what they're doing. Now if people start talking about going to see RPGs performed on Broadway I might complain a bit.

QuoteSubdivisions might be useful doe discussive purposes, I play LARPs, or I play Tabletop RPGs, or I play Computer RPGS and you might get down to a point where you are expressing your own lives and dislikes with I like Immersive Tabletop roleplaying or I like tactical tabletop roleplaying or whatever but these are only useful terms when you are describing a thing or expressing an opinion.

I agree with you mostly, but I would add that if you're playing a "tactical" game that doesn't actually contain any roleplaying, then you're not actually RPGing, you're wargaming. Really, this shit ain't rocket science. RPGs contain two things, playing a role, and using game mechanics. If ya got those, it's a RPG. After that is where your subdivisions come into play, and those are varied and mutable.

Quotereally can't think of why you would want to exclude stuff from the RPG label except as a way to create a clic for some reason.

Guy: Yeah I love role-playing games
Girl : Wow me too
Guy: You serious?
Girl: Yeah I love 'em
Guy: Okay I'll get my D&D books.
Girl: Oh I was thinking of you, me my cousin Tina and some nuns' outfits.
Guy: Right, that sounds so much better, I'll get my +3 birch of thrashing
Girl: Now your talking ....

You do know there's a difference between RPGs and just roleplaying, right? Actors play roles too, but I doubt they'd describe themselves as playing RPGs when they are working. I sometimes put on my flip-flops, cowboy hat, a pair of shorts, and a t-shirt and go pedalling around on my Specialized Carmel, but I'd hardly call that bike racing.

Quote from: Sigmund;378725What for?

Because it's just semantics.  Worldplay.  Cultural definitions being applied with broad strokes, which happens all the time.  We still call certain types of video-games RPGs, but I don't see anyone throwing fits over that.

They couldn't even decide on what to call RPGs for the first few years they were out, and a few other terms got bandied around.  They just kind of picked RPG because it "stuck", not because it's some super-clear objective definition. Trying to assign a strict universal definition for the term now is just a reactionary method of exclusion of games or ideas people don't like.

To paraphrase Unknown Armies, the closer you are to something, the more stressed the subjective divides become because of personal ideologies.

Quote from: Sigmund;378728You do know there's a difference between RPGs and just roleplaying, right? Actors play roles too, but I doubt they'd describe themselves as playing RPGs when they are working. I sometimes put on my flip-flops, cowboy hat, a pair of shorts, and a t-shirt and go pedalling around on my Specialized Carmel, but I'd hardly call that bike racing.

Depends, if there were two of you and the one that was faster got a prize ...

Take kids kids play games that have few rules, no mechanics and they are still games by general definition. If I play a game of 'pirates' with my daughter we are pirates, we are playing a game....
Now you might argue that that doesn't fit into your definition of a game but who cares?

Its fairly obvious when we are talking on a forum like this what we are talking about. If someone was discusing say LARPing they woudl state that from the off as its obviously not the theme of this site.

Now if you are proposing to write an academic paper on 'The form and Proto-generation of Roleplaying games and their socio-economic impact on Western democratic societies' then you may need to define your terms reasonable tightly. 'For the purposes of this essay I intent to define the term role-playing game to mean ... blah blah blah.... I understand that this excludes activities such as blah blah which some count under the banner of RPGs but I am ...blah blah' .

But for general chat and consideration on forums like this who cares. You have the centre which is basically D&D and you have things that are not D&D but are still RPGs. Whatever floats your boat.

Like Clash says the centre is pretty clear the edges get increasingly bizaare and corner-case but there is no need for us to bother about defining them cos only 3 people care.

Quote from: Peregrin;378730Because it's just semantics.  Worldplay.  Cultural definitions being applied with broad strokes, which happens all the time.  We still call certain types of video-games RPGs, but I don't see anyone throwing fits over that.

They couldn't even decide on what to call RPGs for the first few years they were out, and a few other terms got bandied around.  They just kind of picked RPG because it "stuck", not because it's some super-clear objective definition. Trying to assign a strict universal definition for the term now is just a reactionary method of exclusion of games or ideas people don't like.

To paraphrase Unknown Armies, the closer you are to something, the more stressed the subjective divides become because of personal ideologies.

Anytime you open your mouth (or run your typing fingers) it's semantics, so what?

Certain types of video games are RPGs. You assume the role of a character and interact with the game world through computer-governed mechanics.

Maybe they couldn't decide what to call them the first few years, but they've since made the decision. We call them RPGs because they are games in which we play roles. Pretty simple really. So I still maintain that if you're not playing a role, or not playing a game, you're not playing a RPG. Would you describe Poker as a RPG? How about baseball? Hide and seek? How about stage acting? Opera? Interpretive dance? Improv comedy? Piloting an ultralight aircraft? Waterskiing?

In order for the term "roleplaying game" to have any kind of usefulness, there needs to be some things it doesn't describe. Where would you set the boundaries, and why?

Quote from: jibbajibba;378734Depends, if there were two of you and the one that was faster got a prize ...

Then I would have mentioned there were two of us and that some sort of prize was involved.

QuoteTake kids kids play games that have few rules, no mechanics and they are still games by general definition. If I play a game of 'pirates' with my daughter we are pirates, we are playing a game....
Now you might argue that that doesn't fit into your definition of a game but who cares?

Firstly, I care. You might not, but then according to you why should I care if you care, right? Second, rules are mechanics, so if kids are playing a game (which has rules/mechanics) that involves playing roles, then by all means, call it a RPG. That's what it is. Now if you're just pretending, and no rules are involved, just exercising imagination, then that's called "pretending", and there's nothing wrong with that (and a whole lot right). It's fun, no matter what ya call it. But, if I'm talking to my buddy about getting together for some RPGing, it's not going to be about playing "let's pretend" about pirates.

QuoteIts fairly obvious when we are talking on a forum like this what we are talking about. If someone was discusing say LARPing they woudl state that from the off as its obviously not the theme of this site.

I agree

QuoteNow if you are proposing to write an academic paper on 'The form and Proto-generation of Roleplaying games and their socio-economic impact on Western democratic societies' then you may need to define your terms reasonable tightly. 'For the purposes of this essay I intent to define the term role-playing game to mean ... blah blah blah.... I understand that this excludes activities such as blah blah which some count under the banner of RPGs but I am ...blah blah' .

I agree here too, and for more than just to define "roleplaying game" itself, but to define which game and what kind of RPGing it is (refer to your subdivisions).

QuoteBut for general chat and consideration on forums like this who cares. You have the centre which is basically D&D and you have things that are not D&D but are still RPGs. Whatever floats your boat.

I care, but otherwise I agree with you. Are you honestly finding my description of RPGing too narrowly defined for you? Is the problem that not all roleplaying is included under the mantle of RPGing? Are all games included under RPGing? We all know they're not, so why should all forms of roleplaying be?

QuoteLike Clash says the centre is pretty clear the edges get increasingly bizaare and corner-case but there is no need for us to bother about defining them cos only 3 people care.

I don't agree. The edges are just as clear as the center. If it's a game that includes playing a role, it's a RPG. It's right in the name.