Quote from: gleichman;254010You've decided to call a roll of a dice as not in-game...

It's not. The die doesn't even exist in-game. The roll of the die is definitely completely out-of-game, and stands for the effect of non-explicit mechanics.

Quote from: gleichman;254010...but to call players applying modifiers and mechanics per their judgement as in-game.

Actually, what I said was, "That doesn't mean Mx isn't interpreted, as you said above, by some out-of-game factors: it is, indeed. But we're talking about Y, and Y is determined solely by out-of-game factors." So, no.

Quote from: Engine;254018It's not. The die doesn't even exist in-game. The roll of the die is definitely completely out-of-game, and stands for the effect of non-explicit mechanics.

And explicit mechanic aren't abstract stand-ins for in-game influences who's use is completely in hands of players.

Yeah sure.

The only different between dice and explicit mechanics is one is ruled by people and the other is ruled by gravity and physics. Is this the basis of your claims?

And by the by, stop making end result claims and present your logic you so bragged about. Otherwise we're done.

Quote from: gleichman;254026And explicit mechanic aren't abstract stand-ins for in-game influences who's use is completely in hands of players.

Yeah sure.

Mx, the set of explicit mechanics, is indeed a stand-in for in-game influences. The usage of those mechanics is in the hands of the players and GM. I don't dispute that at all. Again, "That doesn't mean Mx isn't interpreted, as you said above, by some out-of-game factors: it is, indeed." So we agree regarding that.

But we were talking about Y. Can you show that the die roll is determined by any factors that exist in the game, that the result of the die roll - Y - depends on some factor within the game?

Engine, I denied (and continue to deny) your end Conculsion. I don't agree that there is a significant difference between dice and explicit mechanics such to define one as in-game and the other as not.

Therefore the proof is yours to make.

Suggest common ground, get agreement, proceed with logic thereafter.

Stop avoiding the question. Can you show that the die roll is determined by any factors that exist in the game?

Quote from: Engine;254047Stop avoiding the question. Can you show that the die roll is determined by any factors that exist in the game?

So you're refusing to use a logical argument from a point of agreement? I wish it was unexpected.

I don't believe that any thing "existing" in-game determines anything, for in-game does not exist. Explicit or not. Die or modifier. In-game is an after the fact creation.

You're asking me to prove that which I don't believe, and which isn't necessary for what I've outlined before this.


Edit: by the way, this a very different definition of in-game than the one I normally use.



Suggest common ground, get agreement, proceed with logic thereafter. You're on the edge of ranting.

Quote from: gleichman;254054So you're refusing to use a logical argument from a point of agreement?

No, you're refusing to answer a question, and I don't know why. Stop trying to show why the answer isn't important, and just answer the question: you may proceed to explain why it's not important later.

Quote from: Engine;254062No, you're refusing to answer a question, and I don't know why. Stop trying to show why the answer isn't important, and just answer the question: you may proceed to explain why it's not important later.

I won't attempt to prove something I don't believe. See my last post.

I'm not asking you to prove anything. Actually, I kind of wish you'd stop trying to prove anything: just answer the question, as I have done several times now for you. If something about it is unclear, please feel free to ask for clarification, but all I want to know is if the die roll is influenced by any in-game factors, yes or no.

You said my use of "in-game" was unfamiliar, so if that's troubling you, I can spell it out more: what I mean is if anything from the characters' world determines the die roll, or if the die roll is exclusively determined by factors from the players' world.

Quote from: Engine;254066I'm not asking you to prove anything. Actually, I kind of wish you'd stop trying to prove anything: just answer the question, as I have done several times now for you. If something about it is unclear, please feel free to ask for clarification, but all I want to know is if the die roll is influenced by any in-game factors, yes or no.

I answered that, I don't believe ANYTHING is determined by in-game factors.

Quote from: Engine;254066You said my use of "in-game" was unfamiliar, so if that's troubling you, I can spell it out more: what I mean is if anything from the characters' world determines the die roll, or if the die roll is exclusively determined by factors from the players' world.

The character's world does not exist, it determines nothing.

And this is a really strange definition for in-game. Can you pick something else?

Maybe it is this "in-game" versus "out-of-game" nomenclature that's causing the hold-up, but I'm not sure what else to call it.

Let's grab a random M2, which is "strength." You're chopping some fellow's head off, and we want to know how far into his neck you get, so we add your strength through an explicit mechanic that says, "add your STR bonus to any damage test." Cool. Now, M2 is determined by something that's not real, absolutely: the character isn't real. But within the character's world, that character has a strength, and in our world, we assign some number to that. So M2 - a real-world variable - is determined by the in-game-universe strength of the character. Similarly, M3 - wind speed - is determined by a real-life GM, but represents an in-game-universe wind speed. Is this nomenclature better?

Y is different, though: Y represents a ton of in-game-universe factors, all of the ones that aren't explicit, but the means for determining Y takes place entirely in real-life: no specific in-game-universe factor is assigned to Y, because Y is just a placeholder for "everything we don't have an M for." That's very different from M2, which is a number on the sheet, or M3, a value assigned by the GM. Y represents things, by definition, which are never given an explicit value within the game universe.

Is that more clear?

Quote from: Engine;254073Is that more clear?

No. You're still playing with shadows for all I can tell.

I am starting to laugh at you however, one who denies God defending the independent existence of a fantasy world. It's rather rich.

1st rule of Fight Club - Off-Topic stays in off-topic.

Quote from: One Horse Town;2540791st rule of Fight Club - Off-Topic stays in off-topic.

Good point.

Quote from: Engine;254073Let's grab a random M2, which is "strength." You're chopping some fellow's head off, and we want to know how far into his neck you get, so we add your strength through an explicit mechanic that says, "add your STR bonus to any damage test." Cool. Now, M2 is determined by something that's not real, absolutely: the character isn't real. But within the character's world, that character has a strength, and in our world, we assign some number to that. So M2 - a real-world variable - is determined by the in-game-universe strength of the character. Similarly, M3 - wind speed - is determined by a real-life GM, but represents an in-game-universe wind speed. Is this nomenclature better?

Y is different, though: Y represents a ton of in-game-universe factors, all of the ones that aren't explicit, but the means for determining Y takes place entirely in real-life: no specific in-game-universe factor is assigned to Y, because Y is just a placeholder for "everything we don't have an M for." That's very different from M2, which is a number on the sheet, or M3, a value assigned by the GM. Y represents things, by definition, which are never given an explicit value within the game universe.

Is that more clear?

I'm struck by the fact that they both represent the very same things, however. The M variables are explicitly represented while the Y variable is "everything we don't have an M for." Which is fine.

Y and M have the same source - the representation of some in-character, in-game-universe factor. Y simply bunches all of the ones for which so specific attempt is made to model, while M's are specific, modeled approaches.

In both cases you're talking about something in-game-universe being modeled or abstracted to represent something from an out-of-game-universe perspective. It's just that in the case of M we try to model something in a particular way, while for Y we do not (for various possible reasons).

Therefore, the only difference between them is that the out of game universe abstraction in the case of M is a specific number, while the out of game universe  abstraction of Y is represented by a random number.