Quote from: gleichman;253959It would seem clear that in a ideal world with infinite processing ability and knowledge- all possible influences on the outcome could be contained in Mx and made explicit. Y in such a case would be 0.

Definitely. There's no need for the random, uncertain element, if you can manage to explicitly include everything.

Quote from: gleichman;253959And it would seem clear that if one was only concerned with outcomes, that all possible influences could be contained in Y, and left non-explicit. Mx in such a case would be 0.

That would leave all factors in the hand of a single random, out-of-game factor. I mean, if you just want a random outcome, a die roll is as good a way to get it as any, but that means absolutely nothing about the modeled reality is being included in the outcome: the outcome will be determined exclusively by real-world factors.

If that's what you mean, then yes, you can leave Mx at zero, and let X = Y, but let's be clear that the result will have nothing to do with any in-game factors whatsoever.

Quote from: gleichman;253959We can also say that between these two extremes one may split the influences between Y and Mx in any way. The only requirement (per our agreements above) is that all influences must be included.

Oh, you can assign any factor you'd like to Y, but that factor now ceases to meaningfully impact the game: it is abstracted to nothingness, since it [and every other non-explicit factor] will be determined by out-of-game factors [the die roll]. But yes, you can, indeed, split the factors between Y and Mx; it's just anything you assign to Y disappears into the singularity of "non-explicitness."

Quote from: EngineDefinitely. There's no need for the random, uncertain element, if you can manage to explicitly include everything.

Which is imposible, so there is allways need for random element.

Quote from: Fritzs;253967Which is imposible, so there is allways need for random element.

Absolutely. I think about the only point on which there's been no contention is that no model of reality can ever be perfectly accurate; I don't want to omit the possibility that some philosophical or technological means will be developed someday, but today at least, a "perfectly realistic" RPG simply cannot exist.

Quote from: Engine;253964That would leave all factors in the hand of a single random, out-of-game factor. I mean, if you just want a random outcome, a die roll is as good a way to get it as any, but that means absolutely nothing about the modeled reality is being included in the outcome: the outcome will be determined exclusively by real-world factors.

Here's our breakdown.

Where in all this was any definition of "In-Game"? It appears nowhere in our expression and our agreed definitions. Indeed if anything, reviewing our past posts its seems clear that everything was in-game from start to finish.


Now if you wish to claim that the die roll is and of itself in no way represents or stands-in for in-game events... well you may do so. I have no control over what you wish to claim or not.

To me, on its face this is an absurdity. And all our exchange has done is to identify an unbending point of disagreement over a concept very basic to game design.

Is this actually your position?

There is no "realism" only good emulation of genre.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;253985There is no "realism" only good emulation of genre.

RPGPundit

If I wanted an idiot to come in and make comments, I would have sent an PM inviting you.

Quote from: gleichman;253977Where in all this was any definition of "In-Game"? It appears nowhere in our expression and our agreed definitions.

It's definitely not something we've talked about yet. Well, I've talked about it, but you're right that it doesn't appear in any of our agreed-upon definitions, because you haven't talked about it at all. Still, I've mentioned it pretty much every time we talked about Y.

Quote from: gleichman;253977Now if you wish to claim that the die roll is and of itself in no way represents or stands-in for in-game events... well you may do so.

The die roll represents and stands-in for in-game events, but as I've discussed previously, it does so with no regard for the in-game qualities of those non-explicit factors.

If Y = "the die roll" = "the sum of non-explicit factors," then all non-explicit factors will be determined by the die roll, as per our agreed-upon definition. The die roll is influenced by no explicit factors, because it consists of only the non-explicit factors, as per our agreed-upon definition. And the die roll is influenced by no in-game factors, because Conan can't reach out of our imaginations and roll the die for us.

The die roll will thus be influenced exclusively by real-world factors, correct? This would mean the sum of all non-explicit factors is determined exclusively by the out-of-game influences that determine the die roll.

edit:

This was in your edit, so I didn't address it:

Quote from: gleichman;253977Indeed if anything, reviewing our past posts its seems clear that everything was in-game from start to finish.

Leaving aside the number of times I've talked about exactly this issue, how could the result of the die roll come from in-game? It's...you know, a die roll.

Y = "the sum of all non-explicit mechanics"
AND
Y = "Nothing but out of game influences"


Yeah, right.



Engine, we've reached the end of our exchange. Sadly it ended much as I thought it would, which is why I don't attempt this online. Nothing has changed except that if anything I'm even more disappointed in you.

Time to re-open my replies to anyone else not on my IL (except Pundit, him I may or may not pause to insult). But I doubt there is much more to say.

Quote from: Engine;253993Leaving aside the number of times I've talked about exactly this issue, how could the result of the die roll come from in-game? It's...you know, a die roll.

And it's out-of game people applying the explicit modifiers according to their judgement. I see no difference, and not reason to define one as in-game and the other as not.


I'm not interested in playing this sort of game. Thank your for your effort.

Quote from: gleichman;254002Y = "the sum of all non-explicit mechanics"
AND
Y = "Nothing but out of game influences"

Yeah, right.

Why not? Look, we've established that Y is the die roll: it's in the definition we agreed on. The sum of all non-explicit mechanics is determined by the result of the die. The result of the die is not determined by anything in-game, right?

Now, if you can show how the die roll is determined by something in-game, then that's something, but otherwise, Y equals the result of the die roll, as we've both agreed. That doesn't mean Mx isn't interpreted, as you said above, by some out-of-game factors: it is, indeed. But we're talking about Y, and Y is determined solely by out-of-game factors.

I'm not sure why that should be a problem. I can't help but feel you abruptly came up against a chain of logic that led elsewhere than you intended. I notice you don't try to gently show where the logic has gone wrong, you simply turn ad hominem and bolt. Now, we can be done, and you can go away, and that'll be that, or you can show me how the result of the die roll is determined by in-game factors.

Does this mean you are leaving now?

Quote from: gleichman;253986If I wanted an idiot to come in and make comments, I would have sent an PM inviting you.

Wow, still so sore about how I kicked your ass in the last argument that you aren't even going to try in this one, huh?

"pundit is a big fat poopyhead" is really the sum of all your rhetorical ability and wisdom... pretty fucking sad.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Engine;254007I'm not sure why that should be a problem. I can't help but feel you abruptly came up against a chain of logic that led elsewhere than you intended. I notice you don't try to gently show where the logic has gone wrong, you simply turn ad hominem and bolt.

If it was logic, I would continue.

But it's not, it pure definition. You've decided to call a roll of a dice as not in-game, but to call players applying modifiers and mechanics per their judgement as in-game.

Feel free to show your logic for such a thing if you wish.

Quote from: RPGPundit;254009Wow, still so sore about how I kicked your ass in the last argument that you aren't even going to try in this one, huh?

"pundit is a big fat poopyhead" is really the sum of all your rhetorical ability and wisdom... pretty fucking sad.

RPGPundit

First, there has never been an ass kicking by you of anyone. I really don't think you're capable of it unless it has already been done by another.

Second, You're not worth any effort on my part other than simple insults. That gets rather boring quickly, and then I just manually skip reading your posts.

In Stone Horizons, during the adrenalin fuelled combat, wounds result in a penalty to your dice pool - after the combat is over, that penalty is doubled. Folks tend to react to non life threatening injuries after the fact of receiving them - in the moment when your life is still threatened, such considerations are lessened...or you bolt. Fight or flight. That's obviously my judgement call on realism, but i thought i'd share.