Quote from: gleichman;253003And this is where I move full circle back to the reason I made the OP- morale in rpgs.

No where in either System 1 or System 2 did I mention morale rules. They aren't there. However in either System 1 or System 2 the actual concealed cause may well have been a morale melt down on the part of the PCs.

Thus realism is NEVER a valid reason alone for the addition of morale rules as was claimed by some in the previous thread. It's already present and handled in the system's abstraction.

Thus this is the reason I've claimed that the only possible reason for their inclusion in a ruleset, is to control or modify the decision making of the players. And IMO, that is a poor reason in general- and an unjustifed one depending upon the genre in question.

Edit: the above was written with an eye towards PCs and not NPCs.

That's what this stupid fucking thread is about? The conversation in the morale thread? Why not just pick things up where you left off? This is the only part of the thread that isn't achingly boring to me, so I'll answer this.

Realism is a valid reason to add morale rules, at least to a degree. Even if we can't perfectly simulate "reality", we can still simulate a reality. A reality where people get frightened, or bleed out from wounds, or possibly die from a single hit. Get this straight, gleichman...we weren't saying that morale automatically means you have to relinquish control over your character, but somehow you've got it in your thick head that morale must be that way.

We were not necessarily proposing that your decision-making abilities be automatically controlled or modified. We were discussing the potential of morale to influence combat effectiveness. Do you get it now?

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;253627That's what this stupid fucking thread is about?

The only thing stupid about this thread is your sudden appearance in it.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;253627Realism is a valid reason to add morale rules, at least to a degree.

No it's not, as I showed above morale is already present (in EXACTLY the way you say- i.e. not control of the character but in an impact on the outcome of the battle) within the abstraction of the game system.

The ONLY reason to include it explictly is because you wish to modify the behavior of the players.

Quote from: gleichman;253634The ONLY reason to include it explictly is because you wish to modify the behavior of the players.

Just like including rules at all in any RPG...

No reason to have skills and rules covering those skills nor having attributes and rules limiting actions based on those attributes unless you wish to "modify the behavior of the players".

Quote from: gleichman;253634No it's not, as I showed above morale is already present (in EXACTLY the way you say- i.e. not control of the character but in an impact on the outcome of the battle) within the abstraction of the game system.

No, it's really not. You're saying it's there because it's hidden by the abstraction, but that doesn't mean it's there, because the abstraction isn't in any way influenced by the character's "morale attribute," whatever that might be within the system. It's like saying you don't need a weapon speed, because initiative's already an abstraction: certainly it is, but unless the abstraction is influenced by the factor, the factor is not part of the abstraction; the whole point of weapon speed is to remove the factor from random consideration and make it dependent on characteristics of the character. Thus it is with morale.

Quote from: Engine;253655No, it's really not. You're saying it's there because it's hidden by the abstraction, but that doesn't mean it's there, because the abstraction isn't in any way influenced by the character's "morale attribute," whatever that might be within the system.

A morale attribute doesn't exist or rather is itself abstracted out UNLESS you put it in there.

So in effect you're saying that it's there because I put things in there that required it to be there. Wonderful circular logic that, I wish it was a rare thing. But wait- that's you're entire world view isn't it? Consistency is nice at least.

So Engine, how many times do you have to say bye to me and yet keep coming back to this thread?

Quote from: gleichman;253666A morale attribute doesn't exist or rather is itself abstracted out UNLESS you put it in there.

But if you don't use any attribute to determine morale, then it's not there in the abstraction, which means the morale system isn't covered by the abstraction of die rolling. If a game doesn't have weapon speed, then weapon speed isn't covered by the abstraction of combat, it's absent from consideration altogether. You can say the abstraction covers that - the random die roll standing in for dozens of such un-named factors - but unless some weapon speed factor influences the abstraction, it's not in there.

Quote from: gleichman;253666So Engine, how many times do you have to say bye to me and yet keep coming back to this thread?

Well, of the two of us, I'm the one who isn't leaving, so my further participation in this thread isn't counter-indicated. I guess the more important question would be, "hey, guy who so publicly said he's leaving, how many times are you going to keep coming back to this thread?" Or are you a Settembrini, all bold talk of leaving until it's actually time to?

Oh, sure, you can say it's just these couple of threads keeping you here, but there will always be something if you let it. This isn't a crucial issue, and nothing of import is happening in your other threads, so why don't you just say, "Fuck those people," and heave to for a few weeks or months or whatever?

Quote from: Engine;253674Well, of the two of us, I'm the one who isn't leaving, so my further participation in this thread isn't counter-indicated. I guess the more important question would be, "hey, guy who so publicly said he's leaving, how many times are you going to keep coming back to this thread?" Or are you a Settembrini, all bold talk of leaving until it's actually time to?

Oh, sure, you can say it's just these couple of threads keeping you here, but there will always be something if you let it. This isn't a crucial issue, and nothing of import is happening in your other threads, so why don't you just say, "Fuck those people," and heave to for a few weeks or months or whatever?

Well, he's stated what a special snowflake he is. He has announced how awful this place is - there's one more thing he has to do before he's off. Announce victory!

He's only followed that pattern on this board 3 or 4 times before. He's a bit like the queen - he expects us all to stand when he gets up to go.

See you next year Gleichman!

Quote from: One Horse Town;253677See you next year Gleichman!

You know, I'm only following the advice you yourself gave me here: http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=252318&postcount=38

You're ability to give that advice, and then turn around and attack me for taking it is a nice hallmark of your character.

Quote from: Engine;253674But if you don't use any attribute to determine morale, then it's not there in the abstraction

You're not serious are you? You are aware that the whole point of abstraction is to not include things right? You are aware that you're attempting to use the term in a way that I've never seen attempted before?

Quote from: Engine;253674Well, of the two of us, I'm the one who isn't leaving, so my further participation in this thread isn't counter-indicated. I guess the more important question would be, "hey, guy who so publicly said he's leaving, how many times are you going to keep coming back to this thread?"

And now in addition to making up new requirements for abstractions (i.e. it must include details for those things you've abstractions out... man, that sounds just soooo stupid to even say), you can't read?

I stated that I'd leave after this thread is (and the two poll results threads) are done. Go back to the OP and check.

Quote from: gleichman;253682You know, I'm only following the advice you yourself gave me...

But...you're not. You're saying that you're going to take it, but you still haven't taken it. Why haven't you left yet? I'd like the good gleichman back, and the bad gleichman is holding up the process.

Would it help if I didn't say anything to you for, say, 24 hours? Would you then be temporarily gone, recharging your Tolerance Drive? Or is something else holding you here, as well?

This thread really isn't about gaming any more, and doesn't belong in the Gaming Forum.

Quote from: gleichman;253684You are aware that the whole point of abstraction is to not include things right?

You're saying a morale system is unnecessary because it's reflected in the die-rolling abstraction, but unless the abstraction is based on morale in some way, it's really not. It gives the appearance of being there, yes, but unless it is effected by a morale factor, the abstraction cannot meaningfully represent morale; it just stands for "random factors," which are not specific.

Sure, you can say morale is one of those random factors, and that's cool, but morale will not actually have any effect: two characters who are identical in every way save their ability to be effected by morale will get the same results on the same die roll, meaning morale is not reflected in the abstraction. Omitting any attribute or factor which represents morale means that every character has the exact same ability to resist morale effects, which certainly doesn't meaningfully include morale, either.

Quote from: Engine;253685But...you're not. You're saying that you're going to take it, but you still haven't taken it. Why haven't you left yet? I'd like the good gleichman back, and the bad gleichman is holding up the process.

You're approaching One Horse Town's rather low level. If you think I should be out the door, the proper action is not to be posting replies to me keeping me here. It's to shutup and get out of the way.

Quote from: Engine;253690You're saying a morale system is unnecessary because it's reflected in the die-rolling abstraction, but unless the abstraction is based on morale in some way, it's really not.

By defintion the die abstraction covers all influences on the outcome of the event it covers expect for those influences directly reflected otherwise.

Thus if morale is not mechanically covered- it's abstracted into the die roll (for systems that use dice anyway).


You know, I didn't think you were this stupid. Are you refusing to understand something that simple out of spite, because I can't really imagine any other cause?