I'll agree with the dozen people who pointed out that Kyle's theory makes no sense. Personally, if it wasn't for indie/story/whatever games re-kindling my interest in RPGs, I'd probably only game once in a blue moon, for nostalgia.

And keeping me in gaming means that I also still play more traditional games (OD&D and Savage Worlds, for example), thus increasing the pool of people to game with. So Dogs in the Vineyard = more D&D players.

Quote from: Omnifray;417013What I mean is why would you put yourself through the half-satisfactory experience of being half-player and half-GM (the worst of both worlds) time and time again and hanker after it as your main style of play - why would you put yourself to all that effort and trouble???

It's not a half-satisfactory experience. It's not "effort and trouble". Those are fun games to play. Some people like playing them. If you are not one of those people, so be it.

I guarantee that, despite what Pundit may say, there is no person on the planet who deliberately plays less-fun games purely to spite random strangers on the internet. If someone is playing games that seem lame to you, that's because they prefer that game.

Similarly, not everyone likes the exact same kind of sandwich.

Quote from: CRKrueger;417072How long does a market correction take with RPG editions, 5 years?

How long would it take the Forge to gain the kind of dominance Pundit is afraid of? A long time.

Quote from: CRKrueger;417072As you know very well (nice troll poke btw) it's not about a shopping fix, it's about loyal supporters of a popular gaming line getting the rug pulled out from under them because of hostile ideologies.

As I've never believed that companies owe us anything, I don't hold to the idea that "a rug can be pulled out from underneath" a consumer.

Quote from: CRKrueger;417072They'll buy the new edition to give it a shot, maybe one or two of the supplements because they want to be part of the current, Warhammer game.

The problem is Pundit's paradigm. In the real world, sure, people will try out the new game. I don't think they'll buy any supplements, unless said products come right on the heels of the core game's release. But in Pundit's paradigm, the average gamer is like himself - a dude on a jihad. They're not going to give something different a shot.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;417093How long would it take the Forge to gain the kind of dominance Pundit is afraid of? A long time.

Really?  D&D4e and WFRP3 have been hit already.

Quote from: Seanchai;417093As I've never believed that companies owe us anything, I don't hold to the idea that "a rug can be pulled out from underneath" a consumer.

One has nothing to do with another.  Forget the "owing" strawman you tossed up. However, rugs get pulled out all the time.  Authors die, shows get canceled, companies discontinue products and services, and replacements that fit all the needs of the consumer aren't always met.  Welcome to capitalism outside of a classroom.

Quote from: Seanchai;417093The problem is Pundit's paradigm. In the real world, sure, people will try out the new game. I don't think they'll buy any supplements, unless said products come right on the heels of the core game's release. But in Pundit's paradigm, the average gamer is like himself - a dude on a jihad. They're not going to give something different a shot.

The problem is you had one group actively proposing a paradigm shift in gaming and organizing for that purpose, while there was no centralised argument for traditionalism.  Whatever else you want to say about the Pundit, his methods, practices, psychology, morals, or ethics, you can't argue that he wasn't that voice.

And to be perfectly honest, even though I, like most, find the Pundit frequently is an ass, I do think he provided some cover for gamers like the OSR, much the same way an extreme political pundit will provide cover for people who don't agree with all of his nutcase views, but can edge his way, since he's so far out there pushing the envelope.

Quote from: CRKrueger;417106D&D4e and WFRP3 have been hit already.

I play 4e twice weekly. I own and have played indie games. Thus I know from a fair bit of experience that you're crazy if you think it's a Forge game.

Quote from: CRKrueger;417106Forget the "owing" strawman you tossed up.

I actually didn't bring it up. You did. "...it's about loyal supporters of a popular gaming line getting the rug pulled out from under them because of hostile ideologies." I just said it was a crap idea.

Quote from: CRKrueger;417106The problem is you had one group actively proposing a paradigm shift in gaming and organizing for that purpose, while there was no centralised argument for traditionalism.

There doesn't need to be. Particularly under Pundit's paradigm.

Seanchai

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;417083Quoted for Universal Fucking Truth. I think that's the best description I've seen.

I might be its skeletal, but the underdevelopment at least probably isn't visible to the players. Also in practice Development By Committee is slow and annoying enough that its just not going to happen.

With any luck, there may be some schizming and the Narravators will start fighting the Narrulators.

Opinions,game expectations and experiences vary.
As for the process being slow etc.,well sure it can happen, that depends on the group/rules and the required depth for length of game desired.
Some folk like it quick,dirty and succinct other groups dont mind a bit slower gameplay...no big deal.

Let us not assume all gamers are looking for the lengthy campaign in a totaly fleshed out world.
I have played in more than one "campaign" that tended towards boring inertia and repetition...depends more on the skill/desires of those involved than any inherent tendency of the rules.

Not every GM is a whiz  
Sometimes their lack of materials is obvious othertimes not. Sometimes it is better to leave much undone and riff off the players...that is my prefered way when I DM.
I see slow/hamhanded results and I have been annoyed in many a Trad. game so none of this is limited to newschool type games.

I agree that it may be more likely to occur in Shared games due to various factors.

Quote from: BWA;417085*snip*
And keeping me in gaming means that I also still play more traditional games (OD&D and Savage Worlds, for example), thus increasing the pool of people to game with. So Dogs in the Vineyard = more D&D players.

It's not a half-satisfactory experience. It's not "effort and trouble". Those are fun games to play. Some people like playing them. If you are not one of those people, so be it.

I guarantee that, despite what Pundit may say, there is no person on the planet who deliberately plays less-fun games purely to spite random strangers on the internet. If someone is playing games that seem lame to you, that's because they prefer that game.

Similarly, not everyone likes the exact same kind of sandwich.

True that...seems some folk are partial to sweeping rhetorical statements here,imagine that?!
Nicely put BWA.

Quote from: Seanchai;417113I play 4e twice weekly. I own and have played indie games. Thus I know from a fair bit of experience that you're crazy if you think it's a Forge game.

Forge game, no, Forge influenced, yes.

Quote from: Seanchai;417113I actually didn't bring it up. You did. "...it's about loyal supporters of a popular gaming line getting the rug pulled out from under them because of hostile ideologies." I just said it was a crap idea.

Hmm, weird, I could swear the word owed doesn't appear in my sentence at all.  As far as the rug-pulling as I mentioned, it happens frequently.

Quote from: Seanchai;417113There doesn't need to be. Particularly under Pundit's paradigm.

Can we dispense with your ludicrous fallacy that Pundit thinks everyone thinks like him, or will ever think like him?  His contention that the majority of RPGers are traditionalists has been ridiculously conflated into this "Pundit Paradigm" you're using for most of your silly attacks the last few pages.

Did there need to be someone screaming from the mountaintops about the evils of the Forge?  No.  There doesn't need to be a lot of things.  However, I think overall the RPG hobby is better with him up there.

Quote from: BWA;417085I guarantee that, despite what Pundit may say, there is no person on the planet who deliberately plays less-fun games purely to spite random strangers on the internet. If someone is playing games that seem lame to you, that's because they prefer that game.

Similarly, not everyone likes the exact same kind of sandwich.

I don't think anyone plays games to spite random strangers on the internet. However, I do think that some people play games not because the games themselves are fun, but because they get satisfaction out of the feeling of pretentiousness, hipness, specialness that the game is about for them. That they don't really care about the game, they care about the image that they create in their own mind of themselves when playing it (of being an "artist" or an "intellectual" or "edgy"), and that certainly for some part of that sense of smug self-satisfaction they get from being in the "scene" of playing those games is the sense of superiority they get from playing those games rather than the "dumber" games of the "unwashed masses".

RPGpundit

Quote from: Seanchai;417113There doesn't need to be. Particularly under Pundit's paradigm.

Seanchai

That's quite the strawman you're trying to pile up there; what a pity no one is buying it.

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;417151I don't think anyone plays games to spite random strangers on the internet. However, I do think that some people play games not because the games themselves are fun, but because they get satisfaction out of the feeling of pretentiousness, hipness, specialness that the game is about for them. That they don't really care about the game, they care about the image that they create in their own mind of themselves when playing it (of being an "artist" or an "intellectual" or "edgy"), and that certainly for some part of that sense of smug self-satisfaction they get from being in the "scene" of playing those games is the sense of superiority they get from playing those games rather than the "dumber" games of the "unwashed masses".

But you accept that some, and dare I say most, people play indie/alternative/Forge games because they think these games are fun and/or interesting?

Quote from: skofflox;417130Opinions,game expectations and experiences vary.
As for the process being slow etc.,well sure it can happen, that depends on the group/rules and the required depth for length of game desired.
Some folk like it quick,dirty and succinct other groups dont mind a bit slower gameplay...no big deal.

Let us not assume all gamers are looking for the lengthy campaign in a totaly fleshed out world.
I have played in more than one "campaign" that tended towards boring inertia and repetition...depends more on the skill/desires of those involved than any inherent tendency of the rules.

Well, when I mean its slow and painful to do...I wasn't so much meaning in the game itself, so much as before the game itself - session preparation by mapping the dungeon or village, creating NPCs, and so on. One GM can work by themselves, whereas in a totally GM-less game, prepping a session needs everyone to be together to define stuff. That then limits sessions to being improvised.

Perhaps not everyone is looking for a totally fleshed out world...Still, I do wonder how frequently could you put together a gaming group where no one in it cares about that?

Quote from: BWA;417085It's not a half-satisfactory experience. It's not "effort and trouble". Those are fun games to play. Some people like playing them. If you are not one of those people, so be it.

I guarantee that, despite what Pundit may say, there is no person on the planet who deliberately plays less-fun games purely to spite random strangers on the internet. If someone is playing games that seem lame to you, that's because they prefer that game.

Similarly, not everyone likes the exact same kind of sandwich.

It's a long time since I last posted, having been content to lurk, but I had to chime in to say that BWA nails it in this post.

As for indie RPGs driving people out of the hobby, my own personal experience has been quite the reverse. It got me and some of my mates back into the hobby, and in a roundabout way led to me reading this forum.

Although I'd love to think the appeal was based on a desire on my part to be edgy and intellectual, as a fifty-something father of three I've sadly lost such pretensions, and instead am satisfied if I can say "that was a fun session" at the end of the night.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;417165But you accept that some, and dare I say most, people play indie/alternative/Forge games because they think these games are fun and/or interesting?

Oh no. The "some people" I meant WAS the Forgers.  I think people play Forge games either: a) out of curiosity (until they know better) b) out of coercion (from others in their group) or c) to get the "smug pretentiousness" high.

That's it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;417176c) to get the "smug pretentiousness" high.

Wait, you can get high off that? Quick, somebody give me a copy of Gravity's Rainbow!

Quote from: CRKrueger;417137Forge game, no, Forge influenced, yes.

And? Assuming that's the case, who cares? It was influenced by a number of things - doesn't mean that puts them in a position to determine the course of the industry.  

Quote from: CRKrueger;417137Hmm, weird, I could swear the word owed doesn't appear in my sentence at all.

It doesn't. But if your statement about having the rug pulled out from under them isn't a way of saying that the company owed them something and then didn't come through, I don't know what you could possibly mean by it...

Quote from: CRKrueger;417137Can we dispense with your ludicrous fallacy that Pundit thinks everyone thinks like him, or will ever think like him?

Happily.

Quote from: CRKrueger;417137His contention that the majority of RPGers are traditionalists has been ridiculously conflated into this "Pundit Paradigm" you're using for most of your silly attacks the last few pages.

The majority of gamers are traditionalists. The majority of gamers don't think like he does or share his opinions. The majority of gamers doesn't know what the Forge is, for example.

Quote from: CRKrueger;417137However, I think overall the RPG hobby is better with him up there.

I think it makes us look like kooks with self-control problems.

Seanchai

Quote from: Aos;417189Wait, you can get high off that? Quick, somebody give me a copy of Gravity's Rainbow!

Oh yes - screw heroin... sweet sweet Gravity!