Quote from: Seanchai;416764What I'm asking - and what you've failed to demonstrate - is how the Forge is forcing anyone to do anything? What power do they have?

The thing is that the Forgers had stupid ideas. But like Sokal's fake postmodernist paper, stupid ideas - even nonsensical ideas - can be very persuasive. So a bunch of people fall for them, and this poisons the well of conversation that we all draw from. And since rpg systems are just a bunch of rules for having a conversation, having the waters poisoned or even just muddied can really fuck things up.

For example, I once knew a game group who got sucked into all the rpg theory talk. They once played sensible and proper games like D&D and Cthulhu. But then they went to postmodern LARPS like Hackmaster, and thespy crunchy nonsense like Burning Wheel. It became impossible to game with them, and their gaming has over the years fizzled away into nothing.

So I had less gaming because of stupid ideas about rpgs, and the people themselves lost enthusiasm and gave up gaming. I had to make my own group from scratch.

When stupid wrong ideas come to your group, it just generally fucks things up.

Quote from: BWASeanchi's point is still true though. If every game designer started producing these un-fun, un-playable games, due to Forge mind control, people would just turn to new game designers who were making old-school, traditional games.

Or people would just stop gaming entirely.

Let's put it this way. Remember that I run Geektogethers, so I'm in touch with a lot of gamers in my town, directly and indirectly. Everyone who's been playing or running D&D3.5 or earlier or games from the same era - Cthulhu and the like - in the last decade is still gaming today. Everyone who went and fiddled with Burning Wheel and My Life With Master and that sort of thing is no longer gaming.

Forger games stop people gaming. And that does affect what happens at my game table.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;416951The thing is that the Forgers had stupid ideas. But like Sokal's fake postmodernist paper, stupid ideas - even nonsensical ideas - can be very persuasive. So a bunch of people fall for them, and this poisons the well of conversation that we all draw from. And since rpg systems are just a bunch of rules for having a conversation, having the waters poisoned or even just muddied can really fuck things up.

For example, I once knew a game group who got sucked into all the rpg theory talk. They once played sensible and proper games like D&D and Cthulhu. But then they went to postmodern LARPS like Hackmaster, and thespy crunchy nonsense like Burning Wheel. It became impossible to game with them, and their gaming has over the years fizzled away into nothing.

So I had less gaming because of stupid ideas about rpgs, and the people themselves lost enthusiasm and gave up gaming. I had to make my own group from scratch.

When stupid wrong ideas come to your group, it just generally fucks things up.

Hackmaster is a post-modern LARP?  :eek:

Don't tell me they actually fell for the "you're not playing Hackmaster, you're LARPing players in the KoDT world who are playing Hackmaster" crap.  The shit purple comes up with.

They played it entirely as a joke game. I mean, entirely - every moment was stupidity.

It wasn't even bold stupidity leading to PCs being heroic and stuff. It was just stupidity. Like, we're 13 years old kind of stupidity.

Quote from: CRKrueger;416845No...

Exactly. When the market stopped producing products they wanted and started producing items they were opposed to, they stopped purchasing products.

Let me ask this: Assuming Warhammer's numbers dropped significantly, what do you supposed the fourth edition will look like?

The Forge can "infect" industry leaders and the industry can start producing just Forge games. It'll be a demonstration of the dialectic principle in action. It's self-defeating - no need for prolonged trench warfare - and the market will self-correct once it's gone...

Quote from: CRKrueger;416845...but they can no longer buy the stuff WFRP2 was planning because Jay Little is a Ron Edwards devotee and so instead of cool information about the Old World we get Dramatic Railroads with Acts and Scenes(with "Rally steps") and Priestesses of Shallya who can't heal outside of combat because just like 4e, the world doesn't exist when the players aren't in combat invoking powers.

Is this about a take over of hostile ideologies or people getting their shopping fix?

Seanchai

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;416951The thing is that the Forgers had stupid ideas. But like Sokal's fake postmodernist paper, stupid ideas - even nonsensical ideas - can be very persuasive. So a bunch of people fall for them, and this poisons the well of conversation that we all draw from. And since rpg systems are just a bunch of rules for having a conversation, having the waters poisoned or even just muddied can really fuck things up.

That can't happen. Everyone thinks like Pundit, remember?

Seanchai

Quote from: BWA;416923You see this as "obsession" and a refusal to be "happy" with one GM. I don't quite get where you're coming from.

What I mean is why would you put yourself through the half-satisfactory experience of being half-player and half-GM (the worst of both worlds) time and time again and hanker after it as your main style of play - why would you put yourself to all that effort and trouble??? I mean for a one-off to try something new I can understand it, or to appease your friends if that's what the group wants. But I can empathise with being the person who wants to do that kind of gaming time and time again.

Whereas roleplayers play RPGs time and time again and I can empathise with that.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;416951Let's put it this way. Remember that I run Geektogethers, so I'm in touch with a lot of gamers in my town, directly and indirectly. Everyone who's been playing or running D&D3.5 or earlier or games from the same era - Cthulhu and the like - in the last decade is still gaming today. Everyone who went and fiddled with Burning Wheel and My Life With Master and that sort of thing is no longer gaming.

Forger games stop people gaming. And that does affect what happens at my game table.

Then there are groups like mine that bounce back and forth between Burning Wheel and AD&D (and all points between) happily, and have been doing so for the last four years. I know of two other groups in my town that do essentially the same thing. And it's not a large town. So, basically, people quitting gaming is happening because they no longer want to game, not because BW (or whatever) drove all joy and happiness from their little gamer hearts.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;416951ThLet's put it this way. Remember that I run Geektogethers, so I'm in touch with a lot of gamers in my town, directly and indirectly. Everyone who's been playing or running D&D3.5 or earlier or games from the same era - Cthulhu and the like - in the last decade is still gaming today. Everyone who went and fiddled with Burning Wheel and My Life With Master and that sort of thing is no longer gaming.

Forger games stop people gaming. And that does affect what happens at my game table.

This is Anecdotal at best.  I have seen you jump on people for presenting Anecdotal evidence and not letting it fly so I am going to call bullshit as well.

I dont care for the Forge Games, they don't do anything for me and I have no interest playing but I know people who have played Forge games and still game.  One of which is in my group that plays Savage Worlds.

So you have your Anecdotal evidence and I have mine.  Doesn't mean either of us are right or either of us are wrong.  Making a blanket statement that people who play forge games all quit gaming is just bullshit.

Quote from: Daedalus;417050This is Anecdotal at best.  I have seen you jump on people for presenting Anecdotal evidence and not letting it fly so I am going to call bullshit as well.

Yeah. My old group has all played indie games and we're still playing. I don't know anyone who has quit because of them.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;417058Yeah. My old group has all played indie games and we're still playing. I don't know anyone who has quit because of them.

Ditto. Most roleplayers I know play or has played some sort of indie game, and most are still playing, indie as well as "classic" games, and I can almost guarantee that no one quit because of indie games -  that's just silly.

Quote from: Seanchai;417007That can't happen. Everyone thinks like Pundit, remember?

Seanchai

Show us on the doll where the Pundit touched you....

Quote from: Seanchai;417006Exactly. When the market stopped producing products they wanted and started producing items they were opposed to, they stopped purchasing products.

Let me ask this: Assuming Warhammer's numbers dropped significantly, what do you supposed the fourth edition will look like?

The Forge can "infect" industry leaders and the industry can start producing just Forge games. It'll be a demonstration of the dialectic principle in action. It's self-defeating - no need for prolonged trench warfare - and the market will self-correct once it's gone...

Is this about a take over of hostile ideologies or people getting their shopping fix?

Seanchai

How long does a market correction take with RPG editions, 5 years?  That's a whole lot of wasted time.  If the change happens it will force a 5th edition, which basically starts all over again reprinting everything that came before, and 6, 7 years down the line, we're still waiting for Tilea.  As you know very well (nice troll poke btw) it's not about a shopping fix, it's about loyal supporters of a popular gaming line getting the rug pulled out from under them because of hostile ideologies.

Finally, I'll say that market correction is going to be slower then it should be because of the loyalty of the players.  They'll buy the new edition to give it a shot, maybe one or two of the supplements because they want to be part of the current, Warhammer game.  Then they can't take it anymore and quit.  Those numbers show as purchases, plain and simple.  The only way you can get a market correction as quickly as possible is by going the Pundit route essentially.  Holding firm and not buying anything from WFRP3 on principle.  It's only if you consider it a war between ideologies and jump in the trenches that you can really impact a company the only way you can ever impact any company - voting with your wallet.  

The worst thing you can do is not realize that there is a fundamental design difference between WFRP3 and it's predecessors.

Quote from: jeff37923;417070Show us on the doll where the Pundit touched you....

It was his ban-hole I think.

Its those damn aussies... so susceptible to peer pressure via the written medium.

Quote from: Omnifray;416729Re 3:-

If the contents of the game-world are largely basically retroactively narrated by the players, then there is no substantial pre-existing game-world in any real sense. If there is no substantial pre-existing game-world in any real sense then, and blatantly so, then blatantly you can't have any sense of mystery and suspense about the secrets that the game-world holds, because there aren't any. So, if you want that sense of mystery and suspense, comprehensive player narrative power ruins it. Of course you could have some sense of mystery and suspense about the way other players and the ref will in future use their narrative power, but it's not in any way the same deal. Now maybe you don't want mystery and suspense, but for me at least they are a large part of the fun, and I think they are widely underrated by people who would want them more if they had better experience of them.

Quoted for Universal Fucking Truth. I think that's the best description I've seen.

Quote from: skofflox;416761Hmmm...IME some of the GMless games allow for as much background developement of the setting as the group cares to do so I don't see this as an across the board reality. And IME many times a DM wings it,albeit from a skeletal frame, as well so...

I might be its skeletal, but the underdevelopment at least probably isn't visible to the players. Also in practice Development By Committee is slow and annoying enough that its just not going to happen.

Quote from: BWA;416817What do you think it will be? Maybe you could start a betting pool.

With any luck, there may be some schizming and the Narravators will start fighting the Narrulators.