Well, people who like to talk about free speech as their excuse for saying something stupid and offensive like to forget that everyone else has free speech, too... to tell them it was stupid and offensive.

Sounds like something medical, better go to the doctor.

I apologize for steering this back "on topic" but I had to say this.

The Forge GNS theory fucked me.  Big time.

I bought it all.  Sucked it all in.  Started drinking the kool-aid, freebasing it really, and it royally fucked my gaming to the point I almost walked away. I tried applying "narrativist" ideas to my design, my gaming, my free-form adventures and I had this long streak of shit games. It sucked. I should have remained intellectually removed from it, but for some reason it spoke to me. I wanted to think I was special and that my "troubles with games" had something to do with the rules or how we were using those rules.

Bull. Shit.

I have played piles of "story-games" in recent game days and our recent NeonCon, and I can't frankly see anything different about how they are executed than "traditional" games.  Sometimes the rules are complex, sometimes easy to grasp, sometimes focused on different "aspects" of roleplaying but fundamentally what's happening at the table is the same.

It's a group of people coming together to imagine stuff and interact imaginatively and having some goddamn fun doing it.

The times that games sucked for me?  Douche bags. At the table.  Shitty people wanking themselves off on the rest of the table without care or concern about anyone's fun or the overall experience.  It wasn't some theory wank about rules, or desires, or writing, or child molestation; it was simply ass hats being ass hats at the expense of everyone else.  In other words, good old human behavior.  There will always be giant ass hat douche bags in any thing you do.

I have learned how to quickly identify them and kick them to the curb.  I also learned to stop theory wanking and just play games (or design them as I am currently doing).

Shit has been going fucking spectacular ever since.

I am glad this site is around to keep my perspective straight when my nickers are dripping in politically-correct wanky piss swallowing over-moderated consumerist tripe. It gets fucking tiring trying to be super-positive everything's ok boy. It is refreshing to see people telling other people they disagree with to go fuck themselves.

GNS Theory is just that. Someone's theory. It certainly sparked some thought, but frankly I wish I would have just passed it up for some more gaming. I consider the theory to have been properly disproved in my experience.

I appreciate the RPGsite Pundit.  Congrats to you on your victory.  I imagine you will see more of me in the coming months.

Sincerely,

QuoteI can't frankly see anything different about how they are executed than "traditional" games.

They don't. Or at least the ones that aren't really out there (or stupidly designed) don't. What good Forgy games do is bake a lot of good (for certain values of "good") GMing and playing practices into the rules so that the rules nudge you towards what you should be doing anyway. For a lot of people this is a huge pain in the butt since the rules are just getting in the way by trying to push them artificially into what they were doing anyway (or they don't like the sort of playstyle that the rules are encouraging). For a lot of other groups having the rules reinforce the playstyle they're trying to achieve is a massive help. For example in my group the quality of RP immediately increased dramatically after switching from 3.5ed D&D to FATE, but this is of course not that case for all groups.

And yeah, kicking douchebags out of the group is also very very conducive to good play experience.

Quote from: trechriron;416054I have played piles of "story-games" in recent game days and our recent NeonCon, and I can't frankly see anything different about how they are executed than "traditional" games.  Sometimes the rules are complex, sometimes easy to grasp, sometimes focused on different "aspects" of roleplaying but fundamentally what's happening at the table is the same.

It's a group of people coming together to imagine stuff and interact imaginatively and having some goddamn fun doing it.

And that is why the distinctions, sides on a war, and all that crap, are just fiction. No matter who says it. A very amusing to read fiction, nonetheless.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;416053Well, people who like to talk about free speech as their excuse for saying something stupid and offensive like to forget that everyone else has free speech, too... to tell them it was stupid and offensive.

Sounds like something medical, better go to the doctor.

That is awesome

Quote from: trechriron;416054The times that games sucked for me?  Douche bags. At the table.  Shitty people wanking themselves off on the rest of the table without care or concern about anyone's fun or the overall experience.  It wasn't some theory wank about rules, or desires, or writing, or child molestation; it was simply ass hats being ass hats at the expense of everyone else.  In other words, good old human behavior.  There will always be giant ass hat douche bags in any thing you do.

So, so true. RPG games at their core are just this: people playing around a game table. That's easy to forget when you just read through an RPG book on your couch and go "this sucks" or "that's awesome", but in the end, the very bottom line, it's about what you and your buddies do with this book. That's what RPGs are all about.

So when something goes very wrong at the game table, it's kind of pointless to blame the book. Blame your attitude, permissive behavior, too strict/loose interpretation of the rules, unwillingness to put your foot down or compromise, all of this depending on particular situations. In the end, it's about communication. It's about knowing what you and your buddies want out of the game, and going for it. Talking, exchanging points of views, playing together. Not being a dick to your friend across the table. That's it. That's the real bottom line, and the source of the immense majority of problems around the game table. Not some imaginary critical failure of a game system because this or that bit is "OMG BROKEN!"

I've been sucked into arguments like this before, about 4e and other games. I think this is where it's important to never ever lose sight of the fact the game isn't about the text covering the pages of this or that book. It's about people around a gaming table. That's it.

While I agree that the people sitting around the gaming table are the most important element, the game itself and how it is written does affect play.

The Forge and all the stupid baggage that goes with it sucks because their mission statement is to destroy fun and fun RPGs.

I mean, play what you like, like what you play, but these people are on a crusade to make sure nobody has fun.

Quote from: jeff37923;416139While I agree that the people sitting around the gaming table are the most important element, the game itself and how it is written does affect play.

Don't say that around Benoist. He will spam like 3 or 4 messages in a row about how it is physically possible to play games so you're obviously speaking in hyperbole.

-Frank

Quote from: jeff37923;416139While I agree that the people sitting around the gaming table are the most important element, the game itself and how it is written does affect play.

I agree. It will affect play in a number of varying ways, depending on the users of said game. This is part of the elements that make an actual role playing game around the table, and as such, it does have an impact, one way or the other.

There is also the game's culture, which encompasses in effect the way(s) vocal people understand what the game says and doesn't say, is and isn't, etc, as well as the publisher's take on all this, how organized play is done, and so on, so forth. This is a different issue, which also may impact actual play at the game table when/if some of the participants buy into that gaming culture.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;416142Don't say that around Benoist. He will spam like 3 or 4 messages in a row about how it is physically possible to play games so you're obviously speaking in hyperbole.

-Frank

As far as the Stormwatch thing goes, I probably would have posted the funny parts without getting theRPGsite on the Interpol watch list.  Both sides have points, but there has to be some law.

I knew about the 3-fold model before GNS, so my main reaction was WTF?  I blame the Forge not for trying to get deep into RPG theory, but to do it so badly and with such poor academic rigor.  I'm sure you could find less biased and erratic social science on Stormfront itself.

Quote from: Benoist;416143I agree. It will affect play in a number of varying ways, depending on the users of said game. This is part of the elements that make an actual role playing game around the table, and as such, it does have an impact, one way or the other.

There is also the game's culture, which encompasses in effect the way(s) vocal people understand what the game says and doesn't say, is and isn't, etc, as well as the publisher's take on all this, how organized play is done, and so on, so forth. This is a different issue, which also may impact actual play at the game table when/if some of the participants buy into that gaming culture.

True story! And, as far as I am aware, an important point of agreement with people who dig on Forge theory and games (see also: "swine", "ruiners of all fun"). The idea that the "system" is more than just the rules written in the book.

From Vincent Baker's role-playing theory page:

Roleplaying is negotiated imagination. In order for any thing to be true in game, all the participants in the game (players and GMs, if you've even got such things) have to understand and assent to it. When you're roleplaying, what you're doing is a) suggesting things that might be true in the game and then b) negotiating with the other participants to determine whether they're actually true or not.

I suspect there would actually be lots of agreement among RPGsite regulars and Forge regulars on stuff like this, were it possible to Step Away From The Internet.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;416141The Forge and all the stupid baggage that goes with it sucks because their mission statement is to destroy fun and fun RPGs.

I mean, play what you like, like what you play, but these people are on a crusade to make sure nobody has fun.

Ah, there we go.

'kin hell.

Quote from: BWA;416159True story! And, as far as I am aware, an important point of agreement with people who dig on Forge theory and games (see also: "swine", "ruiners of all fun"). The idea that the "system" is more than just the rules written in the book.

From Vincent Baker's role-playing theory page:

Roleplaying is negotiated imagination. In order for any thing to be true in game, all the participants in the game (players and GMs, if you've even got such things) have to understand and assent to it. When you're roleplaying, what you're doing is a) suggesting things that might be true in the game and then b) negotiating with the other participants to determine whether they're actually true or not.

I suspect there would actually be lots of agreement among RPGsite regulars and Forge regulars on stuff like this, were it possible to Step Away From The Internet.

Baker is spewing bullshit. Let me translate that from Forgespeak for you: he is saying that GMs are optional, and if they are used they have to play by exactly the same rules with no individual authority; the game itself is the only arbiter as dictated to the group by the all-knowing Indie Game Designer, and one of the central tenets of the Forgie Game Designer is that players should be able to at any time overrule the GM.

Its shit, and there would be no agreement whatsoever with it on my part.

RPGPundit