Frank,
 Thank you for a condensed version of past history.

A lot of what you wrote I and others were able to piece together based on the debates and discussions on here about the 'forge' and Ron Edwards.

What you said about 4th edition D&D may be the biggest problem or impact that Edwards and Forge-speak have had.


- Ed C.

While correct, there are some omissions from Mr. Trollmans account:

Add

• In order for content to be meaningful, it must relate to US-style petit-bourgeois morality of an individual
• In order for the game itself to be successful, it is important to reveal something about the late 20th century US middle class morality problems of the PLAYERS

I also think, as Frank does, that 4th Edition is the biggest success for Ron, and that the influence that he had on D&D is the greatest threat D&D faced stemming from homegrown reasons.

EDIT: Thus, no congratulations for Pundit at this time. When Mike earls gets axed, and fifth edition is announced, the horror will be over with once and for all. To all wisecracks  out there, keep in mind it was Ron who waged the war (he exactly says so) in his lone bunker/south american hideout when even I Pundit and I had forgotten about him.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Greg Stolze
Like him or not, Ron Edwards was the guy who went to a lot of people, shook their metaphorical lapels and yelled "YOU! CAN! DESIGN AND SELL YOUR OWN FUCKING GAME! YOU!" until they did it. He has his abrasive moments and I certainly don't agree with everything he's ever said, but credit where due: If not for Ron, my personal income over the last three years or so would have been a lot lower.

This is the part for me that really just doesn't make sense. The entire hobby, and later the industry that tried to cash in on it, was created by a few guys with strange ideas playing games in their basements. Not just Gygax, but Scott Bizarre (I know I'm spelling that wrong) of Chivalry and Sorcery, Ken St. Andre of Tunnels and Trolls and the crowd which became Chaosium. (I honestly can't remember which one of them started that up, yes I am that bloody old). The list above is very sketchy, I could easily list another dozen. All of the 'Big Companies' we talk about on these boards started as just a couple of guys in a basement. So its pretty silly to go around saying that game designers were liberated by the sudden knowledge that they could publish their games. I know because I've been buying independent and small press games all of my life. Where I live, I'm jokingly referred to as 'the patron saint of obscure games.' I'll admit that it has become easier with the growth in desktop publishing and later pdf publishing, but the option was still available at the very beginning of the hobby.

To me it sounds like Ron Edwards was late to the party and just showed up in time to claim the credit.

GNS (or at least GDS) predates Ron. (Don't take my word for it, ask Eliot Wilen).  The original version was a sort of compass between game-story-and simulation. It didn't say much about having to be either one or the other.

The strict 'either THIS or THAT' version people know of today is marketing BS. What Ron calls Narrativism is actualy a tiny subset within a subset of simulationism by which people would try to actually simulate stories by having literary elements. So a game wouldn't count as "narrativism" at all unless it had a strictly defined moral premise. No matter how intricate the story was or how deep the roleplaying was- it doesn't count as narrativism unless there is a strictly defined moral premise. So for example, if we were talking about a superhero game, it wouldn't count as anarrativist unless right up front everyione agreed that the entire purpose of the game was to explore the concept of "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility".

By chance, of course, all of Ron's designs did exactly this thing. So he of course defined himself as the only person who had a game that created important stories rather than empty simulations or simple games.

In the end it was kind of a joke that got played on unsuspecting elitists who assumed they had a smug lock on the role-playing vs roll-playing argument.  

Mearls was never a kool-aid drinker at the forge, (early members who dropped by the forge during that early period included Jeff Rients and Brian Gleichman as well. Were they also Ron Followers? I don't think so.)

Mike was only truly associated with the Gaming Outpost, which predates the Forge. And this was before he ever designed anything professionally.. he was just like any of you guys.. a guy who liked gaming and showed up on a forum.

Frank's full of shit and incompetence as usual.

Quote from: Seanchai;413468I would agree that Pundit doesn't edit posts and uses threats of bans and the mod voice much, much, much, much, much less often that on TBP. But, again, I'm not sure that's because he actually has a thicker skin...

Seanchai

I know for a fact that Pundit has a thicker skin because I've been reading posts by him and about him here for years, and seen how he's reacted many times. That, however, doesn't fit the portrait you'd like to paint of him now, so of course you don't agree. It would be simplicity itself for anyone who really gives a fuck to look into it and see for themselves, however, so enjoy your semantic jerk-off, confident in the knowledge that you can do it here without getting the digital boot in the ass.

Quote from: Peregrin;413471And yet those sites have accomplished far more creatively, culturally, and even in the public service realm than either theRPGsite or RPGnet.

You take the good along with the bad with those types of communities, but the ability for both ill and good are magnified.

No thank you. I'd rather accomplish less (on a discussion forum) and not have to deal with the lowest common denominator. I can be satisfied with my accomplishments off the internet I suppose.

Quote from: Peregrin;4135222 Girls 1 Cup wasn't made by anyone on SA or 4chan, AFAIK.  Tubgirl and goats.cx were offsite, and I don't even know if SA/4chan is even responsible for those sites.

So catching dozens of pedophiles (maybe more), stopping a school shooting, getting animal abusers arrested, etc, etc, aren't positive contributions to the public?

Well fuck me.  I guess our RPG sites must've cured aids.

Oh, and if you want me to get off your lawn, stop using those demotivationals.  They, along with dozens of other memes, originated with SA/4chan.  In fact, pretty much all internet humor has at this point.

Like I said, the bad with the good.  You get weird snuff porn, but you also get people willing to track down criminals in their spare time "for fun."  It's a weird thing, but one I'm glad exists -- it's an experiment of sorts.  There's a reason the 4chan founder was invited to a TED talk a little ways back.

Are you really going to try and say that all internet humor has originated at those particular web sites?

Quote from: Hairfoot;413580Utter tripe, of course, and hypocritical to boot, but this site is considerably freer than any comparable forum site, for which Pundit deserves applause.

You apparently don't know what free speech means.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;413595Mearls was never a kool-aid drinker at the forge, (early members who dropped by the forge during that early period included Jeff Rients and Brian Gleichman as well. Were they also Ron Followers? I don't think so.)

Quote from: Mike MearlsThe simple truth is that few in the gaming industry put any real, useful thought into their work. The Forge is really the crucible for a lot of the real examination and exploration of the underlying structure of RPGs. Outside of the Forge, there are few other designers who think of games in a useful, interesting way.

Whether he was ever a koolaid drinker at the Forge is not something I even care about. He was apparently influenced by Forge Theory, because he said that he was influenced by Forge Theory!

So Abyssal Maw, kindly fuck off. Stop speculating on shit that has clear answers that you could just fucking look up your own fucking self. For fuck's sake.

-Frank

Quote from: Hairfoot;413585Why insane?  It was specifically and directly related to RPGs, and fits even your narrow definition of free speech.  If by "free speech" you mean "speech that Pundit approves", then say so.  You're already a hypocrite at least one, two, three times over, so there's little to lose.

Your record speaks for itself so, you only stand to look slightly less ridiculous by dropping the defence-of-free-speech charade.

You're not very entertaining when you're being a petulant little bitch, while actually practising free speech as well by the way. Lets see then, by posting X, how many of us around here have any interest in Stormfront?

Quote from: FrankTrollman;413603Whether he was ever a koolaid drinker at the Forge is not something I even care about. He was apparently influenced by Forge Theory, because he said that he was influenced by Forge Theory!

So Abyssal Maw, kindly fuck off. Stop speculating on shit that has clear answers that you could just fucking look up your own fucking self. For fuck's sake.

-Frank

I don't have to look them up, sport. I was there.

Just a real quick search turns up this, which kinda indicates Mike has internalized some things from the Forge. Don't really care all that much, just wanna contribute

I don't give a fuck if you were here, there, or anywhere. Ideas are written down these days. And by "these days" I mean "the last five thousand years or so." Whether someone was posting on The Forge or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether they were influenced by The Forge. It's written down, so people can read a discussion from five years ago - even now that the Forge is closing again - and be influenced anew. That is how the written word works.

So if someone says that they were influenced by Ron Edwards, it's statistically extremely likely that they were, in reality, influenced by Ron Edwards. Mike Mearls did say that, so whether or not he ever posted anything on The Forge means precisely dick.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;413608I don't give a fuck if you were here, there, or anywhere. Ideas are written down these days. And by "these days" I mean "the last five thousand years or so." Whether someone was posting on The Forge or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether they were influenced by The Forge. It's written down, so people can read a discussion from five years ago - even now that the Forge is closing again - and be influenced anew. That is how the written word works.

So if someone says that they were influenced by Ron Edwards, it's statistically extremely likely that they were, in reality, influenced by Ron Edwards. Mike Mearls did say that, so whether or not he ever posted anything on The Forge means precisely dick.

-Frank

Well I guess I'll just cogitate on this when I burn some descriptors and address the premise of my next D&D Adventure, i.e. "is it ok to use combat advantage if your opponent is fighting for a charitable institution". Hopefully I won't end up deprotaganising the players.

Frank, I know you really want to seem smart. But you're a cartoon windbag.

Quote from: jeff37923;413576This thread is more fun than cats on catnip and laser pointers.

I can't believe cyclon wanted his account banned.